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I've personally used WI on two cars... a magnacharged Z06 and my Subaru STI. Both vehicles were transformed by the resultant gains from power and reliability. The Vette forums and the STI forums are loaded with hundreds of examples of users who've enjoyed the benefits of WI - here, it seems, there is much less applied use of WI on the charged/turbo engines. I surmise that is due to the lack of an abilty to properly custom "tune" for the WI by the masses and the lack of supportive published power-gains/IAT-decrease.

The non-intercooled kits would benefit greatly from WI as there is no way to cool the intake charge. More power would be available with proper tuning and that powerwould be more consistant, as heat-soak would be virtually eliminated. Water/Meth injection is the "chemical intercooler".

Who has meth/water injection? Did you tune for it? Who can tune for it? Would you use it if someone offered it?


I plan to go supercharged, probably non-intercooled and to use water/meth injection even if I can't custom tune for it... I can use a very small nozzle and it would only then be used for detonation control/safety for the roadcourse.

Thoughts? Questions?

Be good,
TomK
 

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I've personally used WI on two cars... a magnacharged Z06 and my Subaru STI. Both vehicles were transformed by the resultant gains from power and reliability. The Vette forums and the STI forums are loaded with hundreds of examples of users who've enjoyed the benefits of WI - here, it seems, there is much less applied use of WI on the charged/turbo engines. I surmise that is due to the lack of an abilty to properly custom "tune" for the WI by the masses and the lack of supportive published power-gains/IAT-decrease.

The non-intercooled kits would benefit greatly from WI as there is no way to cool the intake charge. More power would be available with proper tuning and that powerwould be more consistant, as heat-soak would be virtually eliminated. Water/Meth injection is the "chemical intercooler".

Who has meth/water injection? Did you tune for it? Who can tune for it? Would you use it if someone offered it?


I plan to go supercharged, probably non-intercooled and to use water/meth injection even if I can't custom tune for it... I can use a very small nozzle and it would only then be used for detonation control/safety for the roadcourse.

Thoughts? Questions?

Be good,
TomK


You are spot-on. One of the problems with *proving* that water/methanol injection works is that it is most evident in the real-world, not necessarily on the dyno.

I'll be publishing data logging results soon... it is a pretty great solution.

Non-intercooled? Remember, the intercooler will take a good amount of heat out of the compressed air... and the water/methanol injection will pick up where the intercooler left off. They are are good "one - two" punch in the fight against heat.
 

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Considering everybody and their moms on this site want to rely on reflashes instead of custom tailored tunes...there will be less users running WI unless there's reflashes to go along with them. You can find a handful of users running WI on newcelica.org, some of them are in the Supercharger FAQ I made (jlitman, ahnjae, learning). Here's ahnjae's dyno tuned on the Greddy emanage ultimate and the CAMCON VVT-i controller...but keep in mind he added nitrous to the charger and water injection for these numbers:

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=266992



I personally agree with Corky Bell, the author of a turbocharging book called "Maximum Boost", in that he says WI is a "band aid" or a "spotter" for a good tune on a properly set up A2A or A2W intercooler setup. Granted, WI was the ticket for AEM to max out their 2JZ powered Supra to it's maximum hp potential, it's still something that can go wrong and another fluid to monitor.

But in the case of our non-intercooled kits, it's absolutely a great idea, especially those going with the 10 psi upgrade on the stock block. Now if only there was more interest to NOT rely on reflashes on this site...and actually get programmable ECUs or reflash software...MAYBE then you guys can have true TUNER performance on your TUNER 4 cylinder engine...
 

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Considering everybody and their moms on this site want to rely on reflashes instead of custom tailored tunes...there will be less users running WI unless there's reflashes to go along with them. ...
Water/methanol injection will be a benefit without tuning, but you are correct, to maximize the benefit tuning is required.

That is why RLS is working with CharlieX for a Gotham RLS tune.
 

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I personally agree with Corky Bell, the author of a turbocharging book called "Maximum Boost", in that he says WI is a "band aid" or a "spotter" for a good tune on a properly set up A2A or A2W intercooler setup.

I agree, but remember that we have some serious airflow restrictions and placement constraints with the Exige. Water/methanol injection improves IAT's and power, regardles of whether it is the ideal solution.

Would I prefer 8x ambient airflow over the intercooler (to 1x compressed airflow through the intercooler)? Of course. It just isn't a realistic option.
 

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See, it starts to get expensive.-eek- That is the underlying reason it was banned in 2006 from WRC.

$$$...intercooler, duct work, larger top/scoop, water/meth pump, reservoir, surge tank, plumbing, wiring, tuning…and not forgetting to let it run dry...I use them in a few apps and am looking forward to the Lotus results.

What track to you rent to test at? Maybe I could join you.
 

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Someone here posted a nice dyno showing the effects of spraying water into your engine...it kills horse power. He didnt seem too happy with the results either.

Who would have thunk it?

Yeah yeah, i'll get heat for this post. But i'll stand my ground. Those kits are just for someone to make money. They are not real solutions for street or track performance.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I had Meth Injection on my 400 WHP Evo8 and it was an absolute pain in the a** to keep that reservoir filled.
Might I suggest to not keep your reservoir up your azz?....:cool:

All kidding aside, it is not for everyone... it is another system on your car that requires care, attention, and maintenance. If you, or someone else, is a "set it and forget it" type of person...well then a meth/water injection system is not for you.

Asfor keeping it filled, I have about a 4gallon capacity in the trunk of my STI...except for track days, it lasts quite a long time...as I don't find myself driving on the street hard enough to have the spray trigger for longer than a second or two. Here's a fewpics of the tank, pump, and controller in my center console...








Here are the results of my install with a proper, conservative roadcourse-based cusom dyno-tune and AFR/Boost curves... Please take note of the massive increase in spool and torque - it completely transformed the car...




Be good,
TomK
 

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Awesome results on that sti bro! I didn't know they could have THAT much of an effect on factory boosted cars!

I'm currently waiting for my friend to (stop modding his damn car and) sell his car towards a luxary car he wants so I can have his 10 psi tuned greddy supercharged setup. Once I add W/I to that, I should be good for high 12's with my GTS at around 240-250 whp. And if he gets a custom intercooler that's in the works by jlitman...I'll get that as well and invest in some Mahle low compression pistons to ward away the weak stock piston ring lands from going out on me at even high power levels.

Someone here posted a nice dyno showing the effects of spraying water into your engine...it kills horse power. He didnt seem too happy with the results either.

Who would have thunk it?

Yeah yeah, i'll get heat for this post. But i'll stand my ground. Those kits are just for someone to make money. They are not real solutions for street or track performance.
Wow...your high school physics and chemistry classes have REALLY failed you...
 

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Now can you show a dyno with the same boost pressure without the WI or meth injection?

Also include the A/F ratio....I would like to know what happens to your engine if the pump fails to activate or fails to pick up fluids b/c you are cornering. Also, I just want to see proof that it actually increases the HP/torque.

I can not comprehend how a car can produce more power by spraying water in the combustion chamber if the car can currently handle the level of boost. If the car could not handle the boost...why in the world would you risk detonation for a street or track car?

In real life driving...your asking for a blown engine if you allow a car to boost to levels that your ECU can maintain a safe A/F ratio.
 

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Now can you show a dyno with the same boost pressure without the WI or meth injection?

Also include the A/F ratio....I would like to know what happens to your engine if the pump fails to activate or fails to pick up fluids b/c you are cornering. Also, I just want to see proof that it actually increases the HP/torque.

I can not comprehend how a car can produce more power by spraying water in the combustion chamber if the car can currently handle the level of boost. If the car could not handle the boost...why in the world would you risk detonation for a street or track car?

In real life driving...your asking for a blown engine if you allow a car to boost to levels that your ECU can maintain a safe A/F ratio.
Dude...water injection isn't just water alone. It's Methanol mixed. That is the chemical that does all the magic. Methanol injection supresses detonation. That's how some Supra builds can see 1500 hp, like the AEM. Look up the effects.
 

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Ok Dude...

Read plenty about the subject over the years. I believe I first started reading about it with like the Buck Grand Nationals dude...probably before you were born.

Anyways, its been highly controversial from day one. Nobody the whole uses WI because its inappropriate for street use.

There are plenty of ways to prevent detonation. If you cant tune your computer to handle detonation or use intercoolers to lower the charge temp, you can not expect a poorly controlled squirt of water into the engine to provide adequate/reliable protection.
 

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Another way of putting it is if you get a car that is working fine, and add water Injection, you get no improvement at all. It only helps if the car was suffering detonation.

Since all the people on this forum use properly tuned computers...there is no reason to use WI. A properly tuned car with water squirted in it loses horse power. Its pretty much that simple.

You only need WI of the car is in risk of detonation. People on this forum are not piecing together budget turbos and trying to get a rich enough mixture on stock tunes. They are demanding a reliable product and solution to a problem.
 

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Someone here posted a nice dyno showing the effects of spraying water into your engine...it kills horse power. He didnt seem too happy with the results either.

Who would have thunk it?

Yeah yeah, i'll get heat for this post. But i'll stand my ground. Those kits are just for someone to make money. They are not real solutions for street or track performance.

Ah, based on one result you are writing it off? :no:
 

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Based on one more dyno proving it doesnt work on an effective tune...

Yet to ever see one dyno where it produced more power on a car that was not facing detonation.
 

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Are you saying that his STI was prone to knock itself to a blown engine without WI with that before and after dyno? I don't think so...

Based on one more dyno proving it doesnt work on an effective tune...

Yet to ever see one dyno where it produced more power on a car that was not facing detonation.
Here you go my friend: http://www.srtforums.com/forums/f189/water-injection-dyno-results-84131/ .

And here's a guy that made more power than you in AUTOMATIC FORM on his old stock block in his Celica with the greddy supercharger: http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229926

Now he has a built block and is boosting 14.7 psi on his 2zz WITH JUST WATER INJECTION: http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247527
 

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I have water/meth injection on my SC. (to clarify, that's an '05 with Tri-point/Katana supercharger)

While I can't do a before/after comparison (as it's always had an aquamist), I can tell you this: my Elise suffers from heat soak WAY WORSE than my RX7 with an intercooler. I'll also add that when I'm injecting water, I don't feel a surge of power - I don't feel anything, I just see the little blue indicator light come on, otherwise, I would have no idea the water is spraying.

I'm no expert, but I would say that water/meth isn't going to produce much in the way of power, but it's [arguably] good for reducing detonation. I would like to see real data on the cooling properties of the water mix being that it's a part of the combustion process for such a little amount of time... How much heat can it absorb?

:: pondering :: If water/meth is to provide any additional power, it's going to be from a reduction in air temperature, right? So what's the temp drop due to water injection?
 
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