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Discussion Starter #1
I've recently been enlightened about about how ZDDP has fallen out of favor due to emissions related concerns. Break-in oils contain high levels of ZDDP (1400-1800ppm), while conventional synthetics (non-break in oil) contain some or none at all.
Since the 2zz-ge is a high strung princess shouldn't she need the requisite lube to reduce lobe wear? Joe Gibbs oil as ZDDP in them, as well as same AMSOIL oil, but every over the counter store (pep boys, autozone, etc.) only carry non-zddp oils.
If an engine does not burn too much oil, then ZDDP is not as much a concern as I've come to understand. The ZDDP can permanently reduce catalyst efficiency in engine that burn lots of oil. So, the question is does the 2ZZ-GE engine burn much oil and if not what level of ZDDP will the catalyst tolerate. ( here's my catalyst for this zzdp debate: I already replaced 2 cams . . . don't want to replace another 2.)
-robert
 

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I have interest in this topic. I was wondering two things ?

1: Does Motul X-cess motor oil have the requisite amount of ZTTP ?

if not

2: How much should you add when you do an oil change ?


just wondering !
 

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2zddp is available as an additive from Summit Racing (and many other sources.) I add half a bottle at each oil change.
 

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Dealer sells the recommended havoline oil for $10 a quart. Mobil 1 turbo diesel is a bit cheaper at osh. Redline is a bit more expensive and motul even more expensive and available at amazon or car specialty stores. I believe all of them in the 5w40 variety have the appropriate levels of zddp and other additives. I have used all of them at different oil changes and I am happy with them. My first choice is the dealer havoline and second the redline 5w40 that I get in a gallon container from a local car store. It all depends where I am driving by when I need to buy some oil.
 

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The safe level would be zero.

How much oil is going into the exhaust, either through the engine rings and seals, or blown back into the intake will be the factor that determines if there is "too much".

If you are using no oil, then it is not a concern.
 

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The safe level would be zero.

How much oil is going into the exhaust, either through the engine rings and seals, or blown back into the intake will be the factor that determines if there is "too much".

If you are using no oil, then it is not a concern.
+1
An engine which doesn't burn any oil does not exist.
 

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Either your engine runs healthy or it doesn't. If it doesn't you will see it coming from your tailpipe and other decreases in performance. There is no true way to measure how much oil your burning by consumption unless its too late. You can however tell by an emissions analization if they are set up for it. The best way is performance.

The Chrysler Cordoba that passed me today with mud tires on the rear looking like mosquito control has an unhealthy engine. He most likely has to add a quart per gallon.

As your rings deteriorate from day 1 you start to loose oil. I don't think this post is about loosing oil, its about putting that extra little safety layer on your cams. That's why Hot Rodders that run high compression swear by it.

Rob Peter to pay Paul, you find your happy medium, replace an 02 sensor or a cam. Keep Al Gore happy or drive your car.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I replaced my cams due to the "wiped" cam issue. Mine was very bad.
The Elise now has an MWR head with optimal tolerances to minimize cam wear.

My curiosity with ZDDP is justified. I would not use it otherwise. I used 4oz. of Lucas Oil engine break-in ZDDP fluid. Maybe its placebo effect or the chilly weather, but the engine is smooth as silk. (?)

I do have a cat. So my next question is does this stuff clog the cat blocking flow, permanently ruin the catalyst and maybe break it down, or coat it with Zddp. I was thinking if this stuff only coats the catalyst dot-matrix maybe after cessation the ZDDP would get burnt off . . . ? I am groping around in the dark here...any advice?

One last Q: Since break-in oil that is rich in zinc (zddp) is only used for about ~1000 miles to break-in a new engine, may one "dose" of this stuff have lasting effects beyond a subsequent non-ZDDP oil change? -Robert:sheep:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I picked up a bottle of Lucas break in oil with zinc . I only put :3 ounces in. Maybe it placebo effect but the engine runs smoother. Downside is the exhaust smells bad ???
 

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I add 4oz at every oil change with REDLINE break in addditive. The redline has plenty of ZDDP in it though. I also have a decat so not worried. When I removed the cat it was clean after 22K miles and no oil burn at all. Tommy
 

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man..that website by 540RAT is pretty tough to read. Picture is worth a thousand words, he could have cut entire thing to 1 or 2 pages if he had condensed it to a few descriptions, a picture of his setup and all the result in a chart. I'll need more confirmation before I believe a weirdly formatted wordpress page... it almost seems like a masked advertisement for Prolong engine treatment.
 

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I was hesitant as well. Funny this is, when I first came across his blog through links on other sites he never had the additives. He has changed and revised it over time.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 

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re: 540RAT

I worked in an Oil lab of a large Oil Company. I did all the lab work for the engineers. It was a summer job...

I find the article below, unbecoming of an Engineer. If the guy disclosed his name. I am sure The Engineering Society will take his engineering ring back.

There is some truth in the article. For example, oil viscosity is not an indication of oil quality. It is just a spec that has to match the engine design....

Here is the stuff that is disturbing:

1. ASTM tests are valid, because they are standard repeatable tests. I and You can read the test description run the test and achieve the same result. Hence, we can compare results! and oils based on the tests!

2. ASTM tests tend to try to simulate or be similar to some real life conditions. Engineers have been using them to estimate real-life suitability of product. Based on the modern cars out there, I think, they have been doing OK. :)

3. BTW, common ASTM tests are at 80, 100 and 120C i.e. common oil operating temperature.

4. Once can invent the best most applicable test in the world. But this does not make it right or useful. If it cannot be replicated, what use is it. Just some nut case doing something in his garage? Remember, cold fusion? :)


Here are some simple truths:

1. Non-Synthetic oil varies widely in its composition. Every batch at the refinery is custom crafted to meet the spec based on the feed stock. So there is a lot of variability even for same blend. On the other hand, it is driven to same spec and has same additive package. For example, mix two similar base-stock or one very heavy and one very light to get the same viscosity (spec and index), the first will be very nice, the second will work but will have really bad behavior i.e. bad oil. The guy running the batch only has limited choices....

2. Synthetic has fewer different compounds and much nicer characteristics.

3. Pure oil is best for your engine in an ideal world...

4. Additives are necessary.

5. Wear improvers like Calcium, Zinc, Moly enhance wear characteristics. However, they are solids and plug up oil passages and leave residues. They also act as catalysts and acids in breaking the oil down. So, one has to be judicious in their use.

6. Race oils are designed to provide more protection at the cost of very frequent oil changes i.e. each race.

The main observations should be:

1. Buy synthetic from a reputable company.
2. Change it as often as you can afford. :)
3. Do not get hung up of additives, unless you are racing. Then change oil every 2 weeks or more.
4. There is no magic additive. PTFE was never designed to be put into oil or fuel. It is a Fluorinated compound. Florine radicals are nasty! Everything else is snake oil, unless the ingredients are disclosed.
5. The best that 'snake oil' additive can do is be just a small fancy bottle of 10W30 i.e. nothing.

ZDDP and Moly will find their way into the exhaust i.e. oil not scraped from cylinder walls, oil vapor not captured by the charcoal canister that gets re-cycled into the intake, etc. Only very small amounts are needed to poison the catalyst. This is why they are not used in modern oils.

Anton



Take a look at this site and the documentation this person put together. He has info on zddp as well. I found it all pretty enlightening. I posted this in the oil thread previously.

540RAT - Tech Facts, NOT Myths
 

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6. Race oils are designed to provide more protection at the cost of very frequent oil changes i.e. each race.
This is interesting,because it contradicts my understanding of race oils.

I always thought race oils offered LESS 'protection.' Isn't the goal of a race oil to allow the engine to produce the most horsepower? Its a given that the oil will be replaced more often and the engine rebuilt more often, so protecting the engine doesn't seem like it should be a #1 priority. Instead it would be "allow the engine to produce as much horsepower as it can for the length of the race" and after that, who cares, hopefully you won the race! :)
 

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2. ASTM tests tend to try to simulate or be similar to some real life conditions. Engineers have been using them to estimate real-life suitability of product. Based on the modern cars out there, I think, they have been doing OK. :)
Except for oils... ASME uses the freezing point (for the "W" number) of water and the boiling point of water for the other number. Why? Because it is easy to reproduce...not because it simulates the real life engine environment!

3. BTW, common ASTM tests are at 80, 100 and 120C i.e. common oil operating temperature.
Except for oils! Probably because ASME tests oils (and not ASTM) at those temperatures, there would be three numbers. But, as you can see on an oil bottle, (see above explanation) there are only two! The two temperatures the oils are tested at are 0C and 100C. It has nothing to do with the real life environment of the engine... or 80 or 120...
 

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By the way I'm not saying this 540 RAT posting is gospel, but it does have some very good information. His, like anyone's who is challenging normal claims, methods and processes are being questioned. I still find it very informative and take it with a grain of zinc. I do think he does throw into question some bs claims out there, and I enjoy that inciting discussion with facts. Talk is cheep.. I prefer to take a little of all scientific claims and normalize it in my mind across the whole grouping of info. I'm a purist(read, lazy) so I look for the most consistent oil on all tests. So happens to be the one I've used in 900hp cars and 200hp cars, but I'm willing to change if evidence shows that I should.
 
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