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Which do you believe?

  • Evolution...

    Votes: 34 50.7%
  • Creation...

    Votes: 7 10.4%
  • Mixture...

    Votes: 10 14.9%
  • Stop asking me non-lotus questions and ship me my car

    Votes: 16 23.9%
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I once pissed off a Sunday school teacher when I was in high school. He was talking about creation vs. evolution and going on and on about the proof that creation is what really happened.

I looked at him and said, "James, all I know is that God make the earth and all the animals (including humans) the way He wanted to. Whether it was creation or evolution, it doesn't matter. He did it His way and that's all that matters. It would be a better use of the money that the creationists and evolutionists spend each year trying to prove each other wrong on other things that'll help those in need."

I left James speechless. Guess he wasn't prepared for me.
 

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Re: Re: Help me out here...

Johnny B said:
Would love to tell you what he said, word for word, but this happened 20 years ago.

When in doubt, do a google search. google me!
Yes, I am familiar with Google, thank you... :rolleyes:

From the 32,000 hits that your search produces, can you point me to just one link that provides what you yourself consider to be "proof that creation is what really happened"?
 

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The 'proof' I always got went something like this :

I am a Christian. The Bible is true. Therefore, people were created.

When I questioned their reasoning the debate turned into :

lalalalaImNotListeningToMrSupidHeadlalalala

So there you have it. Irrefutable proof that man was created :)
 

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Re: Re: Re: Help me out here...

roadrunner said:
Yes, I am familiar with Google, thank you... :rolleyes:

From the 32,000 hits that your search produces, can you point me to just one link that provides what you yourself consider to be "proof that creation is what really happened"?
Please read my first post again and point out where I said that creation is what really happened.

Thanks.

I once pissed off a Sunday school teacher when I was in high school. He was talking about creation vs. evolution and going on and on about the proof that creation is what really happened.

I looked at him and said, "James, all I know is that God make the earth and all the animals (including humans) the way He wanted to. Whether it was creation or evolution, it doesn't matter. He did it His way and that's all that matters. It would be a better use of the money that the creationists and evolutionists spend each year trying to prove each other wrong on other things that'll help those in need."

I left James speechless. Guess he wasn't prepared for me.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Help me out here...

Johnny B said:
Please read my first post again and point out where I said that creation is what really happened.

Thanks.
I guess it would be this bit:

I looked at him and said, "James, all I know is that God make the earth and all the animals..."

Perhaps I was reading too much into it.
 

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I like the SouthPark episode in which they state that Earth is really a reality show where people from differant planets were put here by aliens to form a reality series that could be broadcast across the galaxy.

Who cares about the past, we cant change it.

I'm more concerned about the present and the future.
I dont even know what country my great-grandparents came from, so why should I care about where someone came from thousands of years ago.

The only thing to learn from the past is how to avoid extinction.
 

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I just wnat to add, that more people ahve been likked in the name of religion than anything else. With the exception of virul outbreaks, and famine, there has been nothing that can compare to the destrictuve power of claimed irufitablilty. Didn't you all know, only YOUR religion is right, and everyone else is worng. You don't even need to listen to them, becuase you already know that YOU are right.

I dated a girl once who was a religious zelot, and didn't believe in evolution. It was like talking to a brink wall. Some of my favorite examples were..

1. How did God drown the fish in the Great Flood? Most life is in the sea anyways?

2. Do you acknowledge that new breeds of dogs and cats are created every decade? (Yes, what is your point...) Well if you believe that genitic mutations produce different breeds of cats and dogs, and that there are more breeds today then yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than today, you believe in the possibility of evolution.

3. Where are all of the dinosaurs? All we have is their bones, are they extinct, or has no one found the yet?

4. Where do you get your proof of creation? (the bible) Is everything true in the bible? (Yes!) Well can you give me any scientific proof that creationism is correct? (No, I don't need to it is in the bible).

It is people like this who drive me insane, no deductive thinking, and facts don't phase them.

P.S. The catholic church did not grant a reprief (forgot the correct religious term) for both Capernicus and Galillio (spelling) untill the 1960's for their perposterous ideas that the sun was at the center of the solar system. That kind of stuff is unbelievable.
 

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Mean TT said:
I just wnat to add, that more people ahve been likked in the name of religion than anything else.
Yes, but not due to any fault of religion itself. Rather, this is due to religion being used as a tool to draw people to someone's cause. Religion itself is not a bad thing, it's just a very *powerful* thing that can and is abused by people. That is why it's best to be involved with any religion you choose, and to learn enough to make decisions for yourself - not to blindly follow some leader in the group.
 

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Mean TT said:

2. Do you acknowledge that new breeds of dogs and cats are created every decade? (Yes, what is your point...) Well if you believe that genitic mutations produce different breeds of cats and dogs, and that there are more breeds today then yesterday, and there will be more tomorrow than today, you believe in the possibility of evolution.
Breeding has nothing to do with evolution. While breeding does produce dogs/cats/whatever with different physical traits, it does NOT produce new species! So this example is irrelevant.

Not trying to pick on you guys, but from my perspective, as a scientist, evolution is just as much of a faith as is any religion. There is EVIDENCE of evolution, but no PROOF. It takes a leap of faith to use the evidence together to come up with the THEORY of evolution. There are still many many unknowns and missing pieces; questions that we may never resolve in our lifetimes. Or maybe questions that we were never meant to solve. Religion is the same way.

In the end, is religion all that bad? Why does everyone feel its the cool thing to do to bash religion, and that everyone who believes in God must be uneducated and small-minded. Well, bugger off! I am a scientist and I believe in God. I dont know how the earth was formed, but that's what makes my job so interesting...I'm always looking for the answers to how the earth works. And it all seems to perfect to be formed by accident. Maybe it was aliens? Who cares. But stop preaching evolution like its the ONLY answer!

With attitudes like this, I'm sure if we left society to believe in evolution long enough, I'm sure you will see killings in the name of evolution too!
 

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Help me out here...

roadrunner said:
I guess it would be this bit:

I looked at him and said, "James, all I know is that God make the earth and all the animals..."

Perhaps I was reading too much into it.
We're cool.

If I was in a room full of creationists and evolutionists, I'm sure that I could piss them all off by suggesting that it's possible that God is behind evolution.

I believe that God made the Earth the way He chose to. Whether by creation, evolution or some other method that hasn't been contemplated.

I don't worry about it because I can't do anything about it and the only thing I can control is myself and I don't always do a good job of that!



:D
 

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Now we're getting this debate moving!

Modern Wedgie said:
...from my perspective, as a scientist, evolution is just as much of a faith as is any religion. There is EVIDENCE of evolution, but no PROOF. It takes a leap of faith to use the evidence together to come up with the THEORY of evolution. There are still many many unknowns and missing pieces; questions that we may never resolve in our lifetimes. Or maybe questions that we were never meant to solve. Religion is the same way.
I'm sorry, but I really have to take issue with you on this viewpoint. I acknowledge that the principle of evolution should be regarded as a theory, but this theory is based on a process of deductive reasoning supported by actual (as you mention) evidence from the fossil record and analysis of contemporary biological specimens. I would hardly describe this as a "leap of faith", at least not to any greater extent than various other scientific theories that are broadly accepted as correct, even if they have not been proven beyond any doubt. I'd be willing to negotiate down to "conjecture"...:)

To compare this to religion is to elevate faith and anecdotal evidence to the same level as the scientific method and actual empirical data. I personally (as a scientist ;)) do not feel that the two approaches have equal merit.

Modern Wedgie said:
In the end, is religion all that bad? Why does everyone feel its the cool thing to do to bash religion, and that everyone who believes in God must be uneducated and small-minded. Well, bugger off! I am a scientist and I believe in God. I dont know how the earth was formed, but that's what makes my job so interesting...I'm always looking for the answers to how the earth works.
On the face of it there is nothing fundamentally wrong with religion per se in its simplest form. I am perfectly happy for people of all creeds to believe in whatever they want to believe in, as long as they don't interfere with other people's right to believe something different. If your faith gives you comfort then why would anyone want to take that away from you? It's when zealotry and fanaticism start getting into the picture that one is tempted to consider religion in general to be a bad thing.

It is when dogmata are forced down the throats of the unsuspecting populace to the detriment of scientific progress or basic human rights that I become particularly incensed. I have as little love for the Mullahs that suppress the rights of women as I do for the Priests who promote the idea of contraception being a bad thing. I also have no time at all for the small but vociferous movement to eliminate evolution from the teaching curriculum in certain States and/or to give so called "creation science" equal standing with actual science.

I'm not saying that all religion is bad MW, but some aspects of it seem to me to be deleterious to the public interest. IIRC, you're a geologist/volcanologist, right? Do you subscribe to the young (<10k years) Earth theory, or agree that all the geological strata were laid down at the time of the flood? Would you want your kids to be taught that on an equal footing with, say, science?
 

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Modern Wedgie said:
With attitudes like this, I'm sure if we left society to believe in evolution long enough, I'm sure you will see killings in the name of evolution too!
My point about breeds of dogsd and cats is relevent in that a type of animal, all types of animals, cahnges can and ARE occuring, proving that designs for animals is not static.

Another thing that is interesting is the use of inductive vs. deductive logic. Scientists use deductive logic to find the answers they are looking for, not to prove something. This use of deductive logic has advanced science since it was first developed in Greece. Inductive reasoning is always weaker, and to base science (not in your case, but some people do this...) ona book of stories called "the bible" is just silly. Some people say the earth is 10,000 years old. Even the catholic church subscribes to the big bang theory. So that means some religions say the univers is 14-15 billion years old, and other say, 10,000. Who do we believe? I choose the deductive logic of the scientists, not the inductive logic of some religioug people.
 

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Where to begin!

I totally agree that faith should not be equated with the scientific method. One is based on scientific reasoning; the other based on spirituality. However, I was merely pointing out that more educated, athiest people in this society tend to look down on the faithful or religious as ignorant. I'm not encouraging religious fanatacism here either, as religious zealots tend to be just as closed minded. I'm merely pointing out that religion is not all that bad. Men make it bad!

As far as my beliefs, I am a geochemist and therefore believe completly in geologic dating from radioactive decay. I work with isotopes everyday to trace earth processes. Therefore, I believe that the age of the earth is pretty well characterized :) As such, I think that teaching anything other than this in a scientific classroom is wrong. However, I do feel that religion should not be completely removed from education either. What about a history of religion class or something similar? Why is science our ONLY reality?

I'm not very "religious". I tend to steer away from organized religion for various reasons (which could lead to a whole other discussion :)). But I do recognize that there are lots of questions that are yet to be understood by science. There are many unknowns. That's where imagination takes over, and faith can step in.

One more thing:

I just wnat to add, that more people ahve been likked in the name of religion than anything else.
This often repeated line, obviously kept alive by an anti-religious faction (to put it nicely), will continue to be parrotted by many well-meaning but not-stopping-to-think-about-it-people until enough of us start pointing out the error in this statement.

As my Dad has said here (and elsewhere): "Before the 20th Century, folks would make the case against religion by proclaiming 'look how many have died in the name of God.' But after the history of the 20th Century, when so many, many more millions died swiftly and cruelly in the cause of man's isms, it proves once and for all that the problem is not with God, and never has been. The problem has always been with ruthless leaders: those, who before 1900 claimed to speak FOR God, and those after 1900 claimed to speak AS gods."

Get it straight, and maybe we can stand a chance against the next demigods who try to ram their ideas down the throats of the populace. Faith is an ideal outside of man that helps us combat that. It puts you, the individual, on the same level of importance as the next "greatest potentate" who comes along.
 

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Mean TT said:
My point about breeds of dogsd and cats is relevent in that a type of animal, all types of animals, cahnges can and ARE occuring, proving that designs for animals is not static.
It's irrelevant. It's not evolution! Next you'll argue that mating of people from different races will create a new species! Dogs, no matter what they look like, will still be dogs. So in a way, their design is static, no matter how much mankind tries to mess with it. I'd argue viruses to be a better evolutionary example.
 

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Time in the Bible does not necessarily relate to time today.
Their was a great deal of the use of the time of 40 days to describe things that took a long time. Someone once lived for 900 years, etc. The Gregorain calendar has been in effect for less than 1000 years. Indian tribes used to refer to planting cycles and full moons as measures of time.

Also the church said that the world was flat too, i think. What scares me is that the Pope is suppossed to be infallible too. Lets hope we dont get one with Alzheimers. The problem is that man makes and interprets religion, church laws, etc and it is not all the Word of God, but the word of those who think that are acting on behalf of God.

It would be interesting to see if the structure of DNA in modern man exactly matches that of prehistoric man. Are they exactly the same or differant like the current differances between man and apes?

If they are identical, then we have proof that we evolved. If they are not then saying we evolved makes as much sense as saying that men and monkeys are the same

This stuff always intrigued me in science class but I dont know all of the latest data.
 

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I don't recall the Bible explaining HOW God created everything. Therefore, I think one could make the argument that the way God created the creatures of this planet was by influencing the evolutionary mutations that led to our current state. With this approach, it seems all are happy.

The whole thing about '6 days'...you can't take everything in the Bible literally. Stories passed from generation to generation (which this one probably was, at least a few times, before it was recorded in writing), are vulnerable to subtle alterations and errors. And of course, as Einstein helped us to understand, time *is* relative, so the length of 'one day' is unknown in this case.
 

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xxxotic said:
What scares me is that the Pope is suppossed to be infallible too.
X.

A friend, whose understandings on many other issues I've come to respect, attempted to explain to me what Papal Infallibility means. He is Catholic, I am not.

Papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope -- a man, not a god -- is infallible. That would be sacriligious actually.

What it means is that if the Pope makes a ruling, his followers get a pass if they have been misled by the Pope on matters of spirituality and Canon Law interpretations.

The pass comes from Jesus.

It also means that the Pope gets to carry the burden if his followers sin because of his ruling.

Now, if the Pope is truly a man of faith, that's one heck of a burdern, and he'd not be apt to make a ruling lightly.

If the Pope is -- uh -- a bit "weaker," well, each follower is still free to make their own choice.

And let's face it, in the modern world, risking the Pope's displeasure is not the same thing as, say, during the Inquisition.

A believer, if choosing wrong, and contrary to the Pope's ruling, still gets to argue his case on judgment day.

In short then, the infallibility refers to rulings on faith, and nothing more.

I mean no disrepect to Catholics if I got this wrong or if they have been instructed differently. But this is the understanding my friend kindly conveyed to me when I asked about it.

I certainly wish I'll get wide agreement on this from Catholics, and that this explanation alleviates your "scares" Xxxotic.

Gil
 
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