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Did a lot of snooping around, didn't find a thread pertaining to this and as I am very interested in this topic, I figured it would put me in the right direction if I could pinpoint some forum members' setups that make great power (+230whp) using NO FI WHATSOEVER. I would assume the performance minded NA Lotus owners have made power through heavy exhaust/engine mods coupled with good EFI/Hydra tunes. I'm curious to know if cams were used (EB320?), injectors (550cc?), ported stock header vs. aftermarket, whether or not a Moroso oil pan + accusump was added as a necessary precaution, etc... Post what consists of your NA setup and what numbers you're putting down (I realize a dyno would have to confirm this). I hope this thread can evoke a few interesting discussions
 

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230whp from a NA 2ZZ?

 

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Discussion Starter #5
230whp from a NA 2ZZ?
I believe a built 2zz with a proper tune can hit 230whp, based on some halfassed web surfing. I did look at that "challenge" thread but the difference here is there are no limits. I'm looking to see whats the most naturally aspirated horsepower etalkers have achieved
 

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I believe a built 2zz with a proper tune can hit 230whp, based on some halfassed web surfing. I did look at that "challenge" thread but the difference here is there are no limits. I'm looking to see whats the most naturally aspirated horsepower etalkers have achieved
Well...maybe. That's at least 260hp at the crank, maybe more.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
well, technically if you go by 15% dt loss it's 264.5 crank hp. but forget about the number, because realistically people haven't dumped their life savings into the 2zz. we're trying to see who has made great power, with what, and mst importantly without FI
 

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And its bumped to a 2.0l
 

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00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
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Ok, here's the deal man.

1) sleepless here is slated to have the most powerful NA 2zz in the world when Boosted2.0 and lilrocket are done with his custom build (race gas, custom 14:1 compression pistons, built block, engine thermal coatings, ported head, piper stage 3 cams, etc). What's holding up the show for months now for sleepless, and a 2zz Swapped + turbo'd MR2-Spyder build is them trying to get a new custom 2zz intake manifold made by somebody that will RAISE peak hp/tq by 1,000 rpms or so:

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249303

They're goal is 230-250 whp NA. Until it's made, they don't have the most powerful NA 2zz yet.

2) youngxlos is slated to have the 2nd most powerful NA 2zz, with 12.5:1 compression pistons, built block, piper stage 3 cams, PPE race header, straight pipe, top end oriented Injen CAI, etc. The only problem is that his shop screwed up a bit oh his block, and he is finding it diffucult to make a standalone ECU MAP of a NA setup nobody has made a MAP for yet:

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259088

Until he gets his engine and tune going, it's doubtful that we're going to see any built NA 2zz's.

3) There has yet to be a legit 200 whp dyno, but there are now a handful in the 185-195 whp range NA, tuned by Redliner9k from newcelica.org, utilizing the 4-1 PPE race header design. By the time you add stage 2 cams for the stock head, and add the drop in mahle high compession pistons, you could very well see 200+ whp from bolt ons, just like the B18C. But until youngxlos gets his car going, we won't know this for sure. There was a car with ragnorak racing cams that supposedly dyno's in the 200 whp realm on newcelica.org after you accound for it being on a Mustang dyno, but even that isn't 100% proven to be right.

4) If all of this doesn't help, then think about the Trial Exige that has individual throttle bodies. They claimed 230 hp or whp (I forgot) in a super street magazine I have somewhere. It's unclear if ITB's will get that much more performance out of the engine, and with a stroker than having a high revving/high compression 1.8 liter build, but if you want to go ITB's, a guy posted about gaining interest here for his company to produce some for the 2zz. Of course, he had no interest because everybody and their mom is going on the reflash supercharger kit route, and not getting any custom tunes. In any case, this guy has a better shot of getting ITB's made for the 2zz than Trial, just know you'd have to switch to a MAP sensor ECU:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49091&highlight=individual+throttle

I honestly think that a properly set up and tuned NA setup will make at least just as much whp than any of the Sector 111 and BWR standard supercharger kit setups, before upping the boost and such. We just need more NA 2zz projects to send out more MAPS out there from pioneers, and give it that B18C status. Boosted2.0 or lilrocket already reported in his Head Porting thread in newcelica.org that a ported 2zz head outflowed a stock K20 head. Lets see how sleepless's build does.
 

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It's fun and all to build a motor, but how about NA gains without modifying the motor?


I have Weapon-R race headers and am adding a Reverie air intake. Like my sig says, I want BWR's throttle body for '06 cars when it's released.


I am also trying to buy a Quicksilver exhaust from a forum member right now.


I hope to have 190whp after tuning :p But I doubt I will.



The best part is everything is easy to install and my warranty will live on :D
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ok, here's the deal man.

1) sleepless here is slated to have the most powerful NA 2zz in the world when Boosted2.0 and lilrocket are done with his custom build (race gas, custom 14:1 compression pistons, built block, engine thermal coatings, ported head, piper stage 3 cams, etc). What's holding up the show for months now for sleepless, and a 2zz Swapped + turbo'd MR2-Spyder build is them trying to get a new custom 2zz intake manifold made by somebody that will RAISE peak hp/tq by 1,000 rpms or so:

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=249303

They're goal is 230-250 whp NA. Until it's made, they don't have the most powerful NA 2zz yet.

2) youngxlos is slated to have the 2nd most powerful NA 2zz, with 12.5:1 compression pistons, built block, piper stage 3 cams, PPE race header, straight pipe, top end oriented Injen CAI, etc. The only problem is that his shop screwed up a bit oh his block, and he is finding it diffucult to make a standalone ECU MAP of a NA setup nobody has made a MAP for yet:

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=259088

Until he gets his engine and tune going, it's doubtful that we're going to see any built NA 2zz's.

3) There has yet to be a legit 200 whp dyno, but there are now a handful in the 185-195 whp range NA, tuned by Redliner9k from newcelica.org, utilizing the 4-1 PPE race header design. By the time you add stage 2 cams for the stock head, and add the drop in mahle high compession pistons, you could very well see 200+ whp from bolt ons, just like the B18C. But until youngxlos gets his car going, we won't know this for sure. There was a car with ragnorak racing cams that supposedly dyno's in the 200 whp realm on newcelica.org after you accound for it being on a Mustang dyno, but even that isn't 100% proven to be right.

4) If all of this doesn't help, then think about the Trial Exige that has individual throttle bodies. They claimed 230 hp or whp (I forgot) in a super street magazine I have somewhere. It's unclear if ITB's will get that much more performance out of the engine, and with a stroker than having a high revving/high compression 1.8 liter build, but if you want to go ITB's, a guy posted about gaining interest here for his company to produce some for the 2zz. Of course, he had no interest because everybody and their mom is going on the reflash supercharger kit route, and not getting any custom tunes. In any case, this guy has a better shot of getting ITB's made for the 2zz than Trial, just know you'd have to switch to a MAP sensor ECU:

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49091&highlight=individual+throttle

I honestly think that a properly set up and tuned NA setup will make at least just as much whp than any of the Sector 111 and BWR standard supercharger kit setups, before upping the boost and such. We just need more NA 2zz projects to send out more MAPS out there from pioneers, and give it that B18C status. Boosted2.0 or lilrocket already reported in his Head Porting thread in newcelica.org that a ported 2zz head outflowed a stock K20 head. Lets see how sleepless's build does.
that's a lot of info to keep my occupied for the rest of this week at least. You think high compression would have to be a must?

It's fun and all to build a motor, but how about NA gains without modifying the motor?


I have Weapon-R race headers and am adding a Reverie air intake. Like my sig says, I want BWR's throttle body for '06 cars when it's released.


I am also trying to buy a Quicksilver exhaust from a forum member right now.


I hope to have 190whp after tuning :p But I doubt I will.



The best part is everything is easy to install and my warranty will live on :D
Bavarian, correct me if i'm wrong, but under the weapon-r header+decat thread, HJZ has dynoed to 181whp with the header and decat alone. Finish out exhaust, add intake (although u should consider a matching W*R intake) and especially with the throttle bodies (they're rated at what, like 14 to the crank?) I think you will definitely meet your goal... provided that a good tune is accompanied with everything
 

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00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
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that's a lot of info to keep my occupied for the rest of this week at least. You think high compression would have to be a must?



Bavarian, correct me if i'm wrong, but under the weapon-r header+decat thread, HJZ has dynoed to 181whp with the header and decat alone. Finish out exhaust, add intake (although u should consider a matching W*R intake) and especially with the throttle bodies (they're rated at what, like 14 to the crank?) I think you will definitely meet your goal... provided that a good tune is accompanied with everything
High compression pistons didn't stop this stock, bolton XRS from getting in the 194 whp range after getting a tune with the top end oriented PPE reace header (Read post #29):

http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49762
 

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I didn't see the dyno, but 181 is really high considering he had the stock muffler. I have no doubt there's gains to be had, but I doubt it's that much. Again, I didn't see the baseline.


The problem is getting the right tune. I really want Charlie's tunes, but he won't sell tunes for things he hasn't actually tuned for (makes sense and shows that he is a stand-up and honest guy, but it makes it a little inconvenient!)


So basically, I have to get a generic tune and the gains will be less than what they could be.


PES is also making a specific tune for the BWR throttle body, so there's a conflict of which product to get. Yikes.




With a good tune, I have no doubt I can reach my goal :p
 

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Discussion Starter #15
with absolutely everything bone stock, i believe he baselined at 173whp (*cues HJZ to step in and confirm). his final pull he managed like 181.3whp with header and decat (muffler stock as you said). BTW no tune... this leads me to believe that header+decat+exhaust+intake+throttle body+ECU could potentially produce 195whp, maybe more. I mean, correct me if i'm wrong here, but these are basic bolt-on breather mods we're talking here. we're not even talking cams and we are near 200whp. I must be missing something because post after post continuously talk about difficulty of producing in the ballpark of 230whp.
 

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173rwhp stock is way too high ,but the difference at 181.3rwhp thats an 8HP increase ( given that the dyno hasnt got a percentage error and its absolute ).

8HP is possible, you can do that just with a quick ecu tune.
 

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with absolutely everything bone stock, i believe he baselined at 173whp (*cues HJZ to step in and confirm). his final pull he managed like 181.3whp with header and decat (muffler stock as you said). BTW no tune... this leads me to believe that header+decat+exhaust+intake+throttle body+ECU could potentially produce 195whp, maybe more. I mean, correct me if i'm wrong here, but these are basic bolt-on breather mods we're talking here. we're not even talking cams and we are near 200whp. I must be missing something because post after post continuously talk about difficulty of producing in the ballpark of 230whp.

The problem is getting a good tune for everything :p
 

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173rwhp stock is way too high ,but the difference at 181.3rwhp thats an 8HP increase ( given that the dyno hasnt got a percentage error and its absolute ).

8HP is possible, you can do that just with a quick ecu tune.
Hi Charlie,

Is this with stock header, intake and exhaust? How about with aftermarket I/H/E?

Thanks
 

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What I would love to see is someone stroke out the motor with the 1ZZ kit, but then add a 12mm or so spacer to the deck of the engine block so that a longer rod can be used with the 91.5mm 1ZZ crankshaft. Resleeve the block to get the new cylinder height. That way you got 2.0L for more torque, but without the sacrifice of the rod ratio, so that you can still hit 8500 without (as much) worry. Engine height isn't nearly an issue in an Elise since they don't really have a hood....and the Exige has tons of clearance.

This is not a new trick and back before the B20 block was well known or available (and now the aftermarket Dart blocks) poeple would do this with the B18C's.

Really it comes down to 2 things at this point. First is that forced induction will get better gains guarenteed for less money and/or time. Secondly, there is no well spread out and accepted ECU solution for our cars. You just won't get the good stuff until everyone can take their car into their own hands and try really stupid stuff to sort out the tried and true.
 
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