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Discussion Starter #1
Hi ladies,


After speaking with my trusty mechanic today about NA power options, he pointed me in the direction of working only the engine head, ie; port & polish, cams, and changing the valve angles for greater intake flow/exhaust flow.



question 1: What performance camshafts are good? Mechanic told me one of his Elise customers with a Katana has been running his Ragnarok racing cams reliably for 2 years. He also said MWR sells good ones.


question 2: What type of tuning is required for this set-up? Would the car even run without proper tuning, or could running it without tuning cause detriment? Is this something that charliex could do, or is a standalone computer required?


question 3: Is this something I could reasonably, with some supervision and guiance, do myself (as a novice)? Obviously I am going to get a shop to do the port&polish and valve angling, but just removing the head and installing the cams? It sounds like it could be fun...


question 4: Is there anything else I should do while I'm in there? Spark plugs?



question 5: Any downside to going forward with this? My SINGLE, SOLITARY concern is reliability. My mere de-cat setup has been terribly unreliable and there's no worse feeling than dumping extra $$ into something you shouldn't have to dump it into, all while your car sits in a shop for weeks at a time. Any reason I might want to decide against this?





Other mods include PPE headers/sport cat/Lotus stage II, and a Reverie CF intake. The PPE and Reverie aren't installed yet but will be by the time I decide to tackle this project.





Thanks a lot dudes :) :nanner2:
 

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Hi ladies,

...

Thanks a lot dudes :) :nanner2:
Confused? :p

Seriously, you sound a lot like me. I don't have a lot of expertise on the issue, so I'd be tempted to ask the same questions. However, why not just rob enough banks to get a S/C kit from S111 and charliex?

Advantages:
- tested
- effective
- perhaps further gains can be had with the same gear later (e.g. upgradable)
- straightforward to install, with known and detailed steps

Disadvantages:
- expensive
- medium/long term reliability unknown

Compare that with the science experiment you propose.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yeah, the SC is a great option and it's a hell of a lot less intrusive. One of the reasons I'm against it is because I simply don't need or want that much power. Call me a pussy. High speeds and fast rates of acceleration scare me in the Elise because the car never feels stable due to the crappy roads. I feel like the wheel could pull to the wrong side or any side at any second.


If I work the head, I can always install an SC later, and it's less than half of the price of an SC. If you include installation costs, you're looking at an even bigger price differential.


But like you, I'm ignorant. That's why I'm seeking advice. The SC is the logical choice, but the wallet says it's irresponsible to go that route, but the brain says in the long run it could be much more costly to go the other route.
 

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How about a nitrous kit?

Spend ~1000 bucks and know what you're getting. Easy to remove.
 

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asking the ladies about how to work the head?:eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #6

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00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
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You'll need to go standalone to make the most out of your better flowing head. Especially for the VVT-i tuning, unless you can have charlie come and reflash your stock ECU. Such is the plague we 03+ DBW GTS's must go through too, even though we can go Hydra, or get a PFC harness now. If you want to go cheap and do the piggyback route, you can run the emanage ultimate + v-manage option, or even run the v-manage independently for vvt-i tuning with the AEM FIC, but they're better to tune for boost than NA.

The ragnorak street and race cams are the piper stage 2 and stage 3 cams repackaged. Look up my past thread on it here about it that people seemed to have missed. My Blitz supercharged GTS buddy here in long island NY got ragnorak street cams and a built motor, and says his Celica still pulled harder than the stock EVO IX he just sold. So yea, your only option is the piper cams unless you want to source those rare kelford cams overseas somehow. Ragnorak had their cams on their site when I checked last year, but I doubt anybody would want to order through them when other sites have them in stock for you, like MWR as piper cams.

And as for doing it yourself, I'd think twice. There have been reports of people having to do some additional work to get the cams to drop right in. PM Boosted2.0 and Redliner9k at newcelica.org for more details, or search for their comments on the cams.

I agree with Mackey. Get your decat issue solved, upgrade your I/H/E combo if necessary, and go nitrous or FI for the money. I personally see no point building part of a motor instead of the whole motor all at once on the outside, and dropping the built motor right in and take the stock one out. I personally will be staying on the stock motor route, and staying within its limits. Good luck with what path you choose. But just know you can't take advantage of any motor work unless you have a programmable ECU.

I don't know if the Katana kit isn't powerful enough for your needs, but if you're waiting for a more powerful FI setup that stays within the stock motor's limits, I'm sure one will come along one day.
 

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+1 on Standalone... Good luck seeing an hp out of the stock ECU... Call in CX for the group tune andt hen you're just talking about more money...

The engine *almost* has to come out to remove the head... Almost... It's doable without that step, but not easy... So there's a bunch of labor to add to your bills.

I offered MWR "substantial" tender to port and polish the head I just purchased from them (which came today BTW:D). They said they were happy to take my porting dollars, but not to expect any appreciable gains. Have you seen our heads? They have monster ports in stock form with very little shrouding... So I opted out, based on their recommendation... They're just one source, obviously.--- but a source that has been able to get some reasonable power out of the 2zz...

Those that have tried the piper cams and posted much about them have shown inconclusive results from what I've seen. With a standalone or custom tuning, you can already play with the cam timing and lift points, which I believe is the reason for the inconclusive gains from cam swaping...

There's supposed to be some gains to be found with a better intake system (all custom setups at this point), but again... new ECU for that to do anything productive...


So, you're back to the SC...

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Thanks,

So the Ragnarok cams are good and have no issues. Check.


Don't touch the motor myself. Check.


The de-cat issue is solved because I have an entirely new exhaust system that's going in WITH a high-flow cat. I'm just running it for a few days more. I took pics of it actually. It's beautiful :p


For the costs of building the whole motor, I may as well go FI. And I don't want to be that intrusive. Working the head is nothing special, but getting high-comp pistons and everything else will be a lot more labor/cost and perhaps riskier? I don't know if that's a route I wanna take... And then could I even add an SC later?

FI is too expensive, to be honest, and as I said earlier, too much power scares me... :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
+1 on Standalone... Good luck seeing an hp out of the stock ECU... Call in CX for the group tune andt hen you're just talking about more money...

The engine *almost* has to come out to remove the head... Almost... It's doable without that step, but not easy... So there's a bunch of labor to add to your bills.

I offered MWR "substantial" tender to port and polish the head I just purchased from them (which came today BTW:D). They said they were happy to take my porting dollars, but not to expect any appreciable gains. Have you seen our heads? They have monster ports in stock form with very little shrouding... So I opted out, based on their recommendation... They're just one source, obviously.--- but a source that has been able to get some reasonable power out of the 2zz...

Those that have tried the piper cams and posted much about them have shown inconclusive results from what I've seen. With a standalone or custom tuning, you can already play with the cam timing and lift points, which I believe is the reason for the inconclusive gains from cam swaping...

There's supposed to be some gains to be found with a better intake system (all custom setups at this point), but again... new ECU for that to do anything productive...


So, you're back to the SC...

Best,

Phil


Thanks for the info.!!!


I don't expect the stock ECU to give any gains so that's expected.


My mechanic estimated around $2500 when all is said and done, including labor and parts, which is a good number to me.



The only thing I can say about the cams is that when we did a dyno day once upon a time, the Katana with the cams had the highest peak torque output and the flattest torque curve. There were 2 other BWRs and Scottyb's Katana.


Anything done will require tuning. I'm well aware of that and well prepared for that. I intend to bring Charlie here for a tune BEFORE this project. If I go through with the project, I would bring him out again which of course, as you said, would cost a lot. Of course it's easier to swallow all this money in stages instead of writing one big, fat check to Sector111 for a Katana. So we'll see.


I started a second job recently (with my father...) so we'll see if he pays up :p




Jeeze, the more I think about it, the more the Katana sounds like the right route. Why am I refusing destiny?
 

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00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
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Well if you want to stay NA, which is quite admirable, you'll need to go standalone and follow the tips of this thread:How to make good NA (Naturally Aspirated) Power on your Celica - NewCelica.org Forum

And you'll also might want to wait for sleepless's build to finish so you can order the new 2zz intake manifolds that are in the works: New intake manifold likely - NewCelica.org Forum

And if you guys REALLY want a ported head that has flowbench numbers to prove the gains...again...go with Boosted2.0: Update on me and head porting R&D - NewCelica.org Forum

The gains from P&P will vary by car, but I'm pretty confident that a good tune, the P&P, stage 3 cams, MWR valves & springs, new intake, LRs underdrive pullies, and a ported or PPE race header with a straight pipe (no cat no baffles in muffler) will have the car at or above 220 WHP NA at about 8500 RPM or so. Throw in high compression pistons, race gas and a good tune and you're looking at 230 or more.

The key is the high RPM flow - the P&P should open that up nicely.

I do not have a plan for a core exchange program for the heads at this time - there are a lot more ways to screw up a head on core return shipment than a header. I'll give it some thought though - I may make some custom shipping crates or something.

Okay - back on topic - Badceli's before & after head flow results are in - enjoy :D

Intake:






Exhaust

As for cams not making any gains...bt216 made a whole lot more midrange torque with a stroker and stage 2 cams than MWR did by staying 1.8 liters when they both had Garrett GT30 turbo setups:

What can Smaay do for you - NewCelica.org Forum
MWR Celica GTS
 

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00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
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No problem. To know that your built NA motor can make just as much power as a supercharged setup on a stock motor with I/H/E mods is very appealing, especially for your track monster Lotus vehicles. Imagine beating your fellow supercharged buddies with NA linearity, and less heat going on in your engine.

Plus once you add the J&S safeguard to control knock, you'll bring your safety net much closer to your feet when it retards knock in individual cylinders for you.
 

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the max power quotes are misleading.
what you are looking for is not ultimate power but acceleration.
this is what TORQUE gives you.
torque is more available by hanging a blower on a stock engine and having charliex tune it.
do it right the first time, save your pennies for the real thing.
no one makes you get silly with the pedal.
the blower gives more area under the torque/HP curve so you don't need to rev the hell out of the engine to get your rocks off.
if the blower is a problem, would lotus have brought out the "S" ?
good luck, sam
 

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Can anyone lend some advice on reliability? Any parts added, such as cams, should be better than stock, correct? What about angling the valves? Any downside to doing that?
This was half my point...you're going to take on a science experiment. You might be able to replicate some of the work that GTsRasta was pointing to you and expect to match some of the Celica guys' expectations, but then again, maybe not.

You also should not assume that any of the NA work you do now will lend itself to supercharging (or turbocharging) later. It is another bucket of unknowns. The Katana is designed, built and tested with a stock motor, with original airbox, exhaust, etc.

If I had $15,000 to drop into the car, I'd take it to Forcedfed and let them rebuild the motor from ground up, complete with pistons, springs and whatever else got me to 350 hp. They know they are doing and have done it before. Is your mechanic so accomplished?

And why not nitrous? There are threads on this board about it, and I know a Lotus guy who uses his almost everyday. He spends $40/week on it! But he loves his 75 hp boost. He spent $400 on a fake subwoofer box to hold the bottle and ran the hoses and wires very inconspicuously. No stainless steel or anodized aluminum, and two discreet buttons below the lock switch on the console.

That's my last opinion about it. Sorry to be a know-it-all, even though I professed ignorance with my first post :eek:
 

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00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
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Well the reliability will first start with your engine build, and your tune. If you don't know by now, a few darton sleeved blocks from the past have been dropping, so MWR sends their darton sleeved block orders to darton themselves now. I suggest you do the same, or else you'll end up like this guy trying to go for one of the first true NA built 2zz's:

My N/A build - 200 whp? - NewCelica.org Forum

See how it's in the repair section now...it's such a sad thread. Also....you'll be going into uncharted territory with a high compression NA tune as well...and you won't have a Apexi Power FC to share MAPS with the few bearly documented Celica/2zz MR2 people with built NA blocks...so don't expect the tune to come up like magic in one night. As advised for anybody modding their car, get a tune to get you going from the shop you're going to, learn how to tune with your software, then constantly work on your tune and improve it yourself. Hondas didn't get their awesome NA tunes from reflashes. They're totally from standalone ECU's. Plus OEM tunes don't get nailed down in one visit to the tuning shop, and with minimal datalogging either. That was one of the main points brought up in that thread. If you nail down a built NA tune that's not as extreme as sleepless's will be, more will follow after you, that's for sure. But then again, he has an 05, so he was able to have the Apexi PFC custom wired into his car parallel to his stock ECU.

As for reliability...you're staying NA. It doesn't get any reliable than that. If the high compression scares you, stay on a safe tune, and buy the J&S safeguard to tone down knock in individual cylinders once you set knock thresholds for it.

And if you want to move onto FI later, you'll only be a high to low compression piston change away from enjoying more VE with your NA built engine (ported head, intake manifold, LR underdrive pullies, coated internals, etc) than the normal built 2zz that doesn't have these upgrades. More VE (Volumetric Effeciency) helps in boost as well as NA. That badceli guy who's also waiting for Boosted2.0's custom manifold as well is having his 2zz swapped MR2-Spyder have a super flowing Garrett GT28 series turbo setup instead of a NA setup like sleepless. Sure enough, he's aiming for 400 whp with a 3000 rpm spool and 9500 rpm fuel cut, just like how forcedfed did, but with better breathing to make more power than they did.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
the max power quotes are misleading.
what you are looking for is not ultimate power but acceleration.
this is what TORQUE gives you.
torque is more available by hanging a blower on a stock engine and having charliex tune it.
do it right the first time, save your pennies for the real thing.
no one makes you get silly with the pedal.
the blower gives more area under the torque/HP curve so you don't need to rev the hell out of the engine to get your rocks off.
if the blower is a problem, would lotus have brought out the "S" ?
good luck, sam

Thanks. You're right about the blower not affecting longevity based on Lotus using it.


The cost is prohibitive, but if I can spend $3000 on whatever I'm doing now, I should be able to save enough for $4300 on an SC from Sector111. But then there's the $600 flash and the $1500 install to consider. OK, I admitted it: The cost is prohibiting me from going SC! I know; you gotta pay to play, right? But the reality is, I'm not looking for a ton more power. Just some. So in that light, I am OK with doing just NA mods.

This was half my point...you're going to take on a science experiment. You might be able to replicate some of the work that GTsRasta was pointing to you and expect to match some of the Celica guys' expectations, but then again, maybe not.

You also should not assume that any of the NA work you do now will lend itself to supercharging (or turbocharging) later. It is another bucket of unknowns. The Katana is designed, built and tested with a stock motor, with original airbox, exhaust, etc.

If I had $15,000 to drop into the car, I'd take it to Forcedfed and let them rebuild the motor from ground up, complete with pistons, springs and whatever else got me to 350 hp. They know they are doing and have done it before. Is your mechanic so accomplished?

And why not nitrous? There are threads on this board about it, and I know a Lotus guy who uses his almost everyday. He spends $40/week on it! But he loves his 75 hp boost. He spent $400 on a fake subwoofer box to hold the bottle and ran the hoses and wires very inconspicuously. No stainless steel or anodized aluminum, and two discreet buttons below the lock switch on the console.

That's my last opinion about it. Sorry to be a know-it-all, even though I professed ignorance with my first post :eek:
Thanks Chris, I appreciate your input.

I don't think it's anything too special; just cams, p&p and the valve angling which I might not even do. It's new territory for me, but then, everything I do is new territory because I've never modded a car really. Sometimes you live and learn, eh? But also learn from other's mistakes. That's important too.

My mechanic is a former head mechanic at Lotus of Greenwich and is working to become a registered Forced Fed installer. He's already a Katana installer. He does know Lotus. If he wasn't so knowledgeable about Lotuses, I would not trust him with my car at all. So thank goodness that's not something to worry about.


I'm still not into nitrous. I want the power available all the time, not just when I decide to go fast! It's hard to explain, but nitrous doesn't seem the same to me. I haven't driven an NOS car so maybe I am wrong.


Well the reliability will first start with your engine build, and your tune. If you don't know by now, a few darton sleeved blocks from the past have been dropping, so MWR sends their darton sleeved block orders to darton themselves now. I suggest you do the same, or else you'll end up like this guy trying to go for one of the first true NA built 2zz's:

My N/A build - 200 whp? - NewCelica.org Forum

See how it's in the repair section now...it's such a sad thread. Also....you'll be going into uncharted territory with a high compression NA tune as well...and you won't have a Apexi Power FC to share MAPS with the few bearly documented Celica/2zz MR2 people with built NA blocks...so don't expect the tune to come up like magic in one night. As advised for anybody modding their car, get a tune to get you going from the shop you're going to, learn how to tune with your software, then constantly work on your tune and improve it yourself. Hondas didn't get their awesome NA tunes from reflashes. They're totally from standalone ECU's. Plus OEM tunes don't get nailed down in one visit to the tuning shop, and with minimal datalogging either. That was one of the main points brought up in that thread. If you nail down a built NA tune that's not as extreme as sleepless's will be, more will follow after you, that's for sure. But then again, he has an 05, so he was able to have the Apexi PFC custom wired into his car parallel to his stock ECU.

As for reliability...you're staying NA. It doesn't get any reliable than that. If the high compression scares you, stay on a safe tune, and buy the J&S safeguard to tone down knock in individual cylinders once you set knock thresholds for it.

And if you want to move onto FI later, you'll only be a high to low compression piston change away from enjoying more VE with your NA built engine (ported head, intake manifold, LR underdrive pullies, coated internals, etc) than the normal built 2zz that doesn't have these upgrades. More VE (Volumetric Effeciency) helps in boost as well as NA. That badceli guy who's also waiting for Boosted2.0's custom manifold as well is having his 2zz swapped MR2-Spyder have a super flowing Garrett GT28 series turbo setup instead of a NA setup like sleepless. Sure enough, he's aiming for 400 whp with a 3000 rpm spool and 9500 rpm fuel cut, just like how forcedfed did, but with better breathing to make more power than they did.


Thanks. I don't think I am going to make this the ultimate NA build. Just some simple mods for now. Maybe in the future I'll crave more, but I can't see myself dumping $10k into this car when I know every dollar of that goes down the toilet (no returns on the money).
 

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Yeah, the SC is a great option and it's a hell of a lot less intrusive. One of the reasons I'm against it is because I simply don't need or want that much power. Call me a pussy. High speeds and fast rates of acceleration scare me in the Elise because the car never feels stable due to the crappy roads. I feel like the wheel could pull to the wrong side or any side at any second.
That's an interesting take. You will spend thousands on headwork IMO, and end up with a peaky missile. The SC will probably cost about the same, and is a very gentle gradual, flat type of power. My elise coming on the pipe does not scare me at all, it's exciting, but not moreso than an old 911 turbo (390whp) that would smoke through 3 gear changes.

When you flow heads, flycut to raise CR, add overlap, and open up your exhaust and intake to flow, you will likely find a vacum under 2K, and a huge torque spike. Have you driven a S111/BWR car?
 
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