Great info.

 

Wow what an incredible amount of research and info! Very well put together. I think we have a ABS guru here! I have my mental notes on what members are knowledgeable about and I can't remember reading so much about ABS in one thread. I know if I had ABS question who to ask lol.

 

Great info!

I installed one of the “programmable” MK60 units from an E46 M3 before the prices got out of control.

Even with the stock M3 programming and even getting my yaw module installed backwards initially, it was a huge improvement over the stock ABS system.

Instead of dealing with the stock ABS WSS and converting them to a hall signal, I am using the BMW sensors and made custom tone rings that mount to my rotor hats. This also gives me an interface to mechanically change the number of pulses per rev for each axle. So, front is 44 pulses/rev and rear is 48 pulses/rev. The rear matches S3 hub pulse count, so my rear 5-bolt conversion using Exige V6 front hubs doesn’t ruin my WSS setup.

Two observations that appear to be normal:
1. The pedal travel during ABS actuation is significant. At the 2024 SCCA Solo Spring Nats, I talked with other Mk60 conversion users and they confirmed this behavior.
2. The ABS module makes a ticking sound when it is operational… maybe 1.5hz-ish frequency.

 

Great info!

I installed one of the “programmable” MK60 units from an E46 M3 before the prices got out of control.

Even with the stock M3 programming and even getting my yaw module installed backwards initially, it was a huge improvement over the stock ABS system.

Instead of dealing with the stock ABS WSS and converting them to a hall signal, I am using the BMW sensors and made custom tone rings that mount to my rotor hats. This also gives me an interface to mechanically change the number of pulses per rev for each axle. So, front is 44 pulses/rev and rear is 48 pulses/rev. The rear matches S3 hub pulse count, so my rear 5-bolt conversion using Exige V6 front hubs doesn’t ruin my WSS setup.

Two observations that appear to be normal:
1. The pedal travel during ABS actuation is significant. At the 2024 SCCA Solo Spring Nats, I talked with other Mk60 conversion users and they confirmed this behavior.
2. The ABS module makes a ticking sound when it is operational… maybe 1.5hz-ish frequency.

I was originally going to follow your route of doing the tone rings after figuring out the stock S2 hubs are 29 tooth until I realized the S3 hubs bolt in. I just wish there was a 5x100 hub option for at least the rear of these cars, I'm pretty sure I can fit a 17x9.5 under stock Elise clam but there is literally no 4x100 wheel for it. Oh well, different topic

Yeah, it's kinda interesting with respect to ABS activation - also there are two distinct modes, one where the pedal goes kinda silent but allows more travel and the other where the pedal stays firm but you get a slow .5-1hz thump, the latter happens for me when I'm lightly trailing off the brake with the inside front up over a curb or something.

Also, brake distribution is very active now that I can see what the ABS is doing mode wise, all of my previous swaps have been the same MK60 you use, which doesn't output intervention mode.

The stock ABS system seems to numb the crap out of pedal feel in this car and I now understand the over-boosted comments that they get. Something I've yet to test (due to lack of late-December events) is a Toyota EVAP solenoid plumbed inline with the booster and an adjustable pressure switch between the booster and solenoid so I can control the amount of vac that the booster sees. I was given this idea by the Frankenstein Motorworks dude that does the 2GR / 2AR swap stuff for MR2s, apparently he runs this setup in their endurance cars.

 

Hi
I once came across someone stating that the E5 could be programed to have multiple traction settings, so u could have a rotory switch just like the race unites with 1-10 diffrent settings...

Anyone knows if thats true?

 

Yes, this is the Z4 GT3 software, it only goes on a special version of the MK60E5. Tire size and some other stuff can be adjusted over CAN too.

 

Great info! I'm still trying to digest it all, but I see your comments about improving pedal feel and reducing the sensation of being overboosted. Are those the main benefits?

It's my understanding that high end motorsports ABS systems effectively allow the driver to push the pedal as hard as possible and then the ABS will modulate pressure to achieve maximum braking force. Is something like possible with these units?

 

Great info! I'm still trying to digest it all, but I see your comments about improving pedal feel and reducing the sensation of being overboosted. Are those the main benefits?

It's my understanding that high end motorsports ABS systems effectively allow the driver to push the pedal as hard as possible and then the ABS will modulate pressure to achieve maximum braking force. Is something like possible with these units?

You can do that with these, but there is much more of an emphasis on vehicle stability than you'll find on the more aggressive settings of something like a Bosch. With the yaw sensor you can basically flick the car into a corner out of shape, get on the brakes, and the ABS will straighten the car out for you.

It improved pedal feel for me, but it was the opposite side of what you're saying where it made it more apparent that the stock setup is overboosted. By this I mean that I can actually feel (and see via the dash intervention mode) that the ABS is both doing brake distribution and actual modulation for lockup, rather than the pedal just being numb and the car stopping like hot garbage.

 

I ran the motorsport flashed E1 this past weekend for the first time, it was pretty night and day compared to even the E90 stock unit over the stock Lotus but I think that the majority of this comes down to it being properly configured for the tire sizes on the car. The amount of intervention was extremely low and I was unable to get it to do anything weird even while trying to upset it. I was able to coax it into a hard pedal once by quickly ramping to 1400psi line pressure to see what it'd do, but it still slowed better than I expected in this kind of situation (I didn't blow the corner).

While not apples to apples, data more or less seems to indicate that it overall retains more decel-g when in abs modulation and for whatever reason peak decel g is a fair bit higher than stock.

Overall, I'm extremely happy with it, especially for the cost.

 

Thanks for the update!

Overall, I'm extremely happy with it, especially for the cost.

How much would you say it cost you, all together?

 

Thanks for the detailed reply!

 

Hi all,
Just a visitor. (I'm a degenerate with a DSM trying to piece together a modern track build for a car that's normally used for drag racing)
Is there any other source for MK60E5? It seems like the scalpers got onto this one and now it's going for $480 on Ebay.

 

Hi all,
Just a visitor. (I'm a degenerate with a DSM trying to piece together a modern track build for a car that's normally used for drag racing)
Is there any other source for MK60E5? It seems like the scalpers got onto this one and now it's going for $480 on Ebay.

Search 6789303 on eBay, here is one 2011-2013 BMW 335i ABS Unit Anti Lock Brake Pump Control Module 6789303 OEM . | eBay but you should be able to find them from like $30 on up.

Never surrender to terrorists (scalpers), there were hundreds of thousands of these cars made.

We have a FB group, if you want to join too Log into Facebook

 

Finally connected my Exige V6 front hubs to the rear axle of my Elise w/ Conti Mk60 813.3 ECU.

Confirmed, 48 pulse per rev through my Haltech scope.

 

I'd like to note that HappyCactusGarage is testing an updated module that can convert the VR or normal style Hall wheel speed signal like the one in the S3 hubs to the special Hall with directional/quality/etc encoding that the MK60E5 from the E90 BMW uses.

What this means is you can now get an ABS module from a US junkyard E90 6cyl/8cyl car instead of having to order an MK60E1 from an E90 4cyl car module from Europe. You also get individual wheel brake pressure outputs over CAN instead of just the input pressure that the MK60E1 provides.

Also, I've now got some 10 events on the car since I put the MK60E1 in and I couldn't be happier with how it has been working for me.

 

@chibo, are the parameters you listed in the Unit Coding section available on the stock unit or only with the reflash? Can you changes these parameters with NCSExpert? Why do you need to use the BMW yaw sensor? Can you use any yaw sensor if it correctly sends yaw rates via CAN?

 

@chibo, are the parameters you listed in the Unit Coding section available on the stock unit or only with the reflash? Can you changes these parameters with NCSExpert?

They're on the stock unit, and they can be changed with NCSExpert / NCSDummy.

So, the flash is interesting. I read all of the parameters/software versions/vin/etc off my unit with Tool32 before I mailed it and nothing changed except the Continental software version (AT5RAA00008 pre-flash, AT5RAA00017 after flash). My guess is that changing parameters does nothing with the flash, but I haven't tried. The individual calculated wheel tolerance is within a percent compared to the stock software that showed like 5-6% difference.

In terms of how it acts, it is like a stock unit with the yaw sensor disconnected, more wheel slip allowed, less focus on stability (less ebd), and when you do get a hard pedal it actually stops instead of blowing the corner.

edit: I just saw your yaw comment. As far as I know, you need to use the BMW one since it follows the CAN format the module expects.

 

Do the MK60 units use Steering Angle Position? There's a bunch of steering angle related parameters but there's no input for analog steering angle so it would probably come from CAN like Yaw.

 

They do, they're on FCAN like the yaw. They're almost never used in retrofits, partially since the modeled steering angle to actual wheel angle would be different.

 

Guys, resurrecting this since you seem quite knowledgeable. Has anybody actually tested the difference on track? Is there an objective longitudinal G force difference on equal tires? Also, regarding the Z4 GT3 flash, is it possible to have a rotating knob and adjust the maps with that?

 

I haven't bothered A-B testing with the sole intention of gathering data yet, but my wild educated guess is likely yes as it seems to wait longer to intervene, allows more slip, and additionally doesn't try to straighten the car out excessively under heavy trail brake.

Yes, the Z4 GT3 flash allows for the knob or adjustment over CAN, as well as tire size adjustment over CAN. I was kind of talked out of buying it by Mario over at MK since he said they only really found it worthwhile in high DF cars (eg. the cars it was spec'd in like the Z4 GT3, E92 M3 GT2, Audi R8 GT3LMS, Lambo GT3) due to built-in downforce compensation and it needs a rare MK60E5 module for older sensor support.

 

@dutchyourmf finished his E1 setup in his Elise over the weekend, so he kindly posted some more pictures and information in his build thread

https://www.lotustalk.com/posts/6372754/

 

Alright, I guess I will be the test subject. I acquired a Z4 829.3 MK60E5 module for cheap after months of patience and am sending it over to EU for the "GT3" version of the flash with intevention trim knob, adjustable tire size over CAN, and normal wheel speed sensor type instead of MR.

I'm guessing the difference will be small, but I'm happy to be surprised. The flashed E1 is absolute magic as-is.

 

I got one as well haha, mine won't be here any time soon so please let me know how you like it! Is there any difference wiring wise with that module?