I think more info might be needed to answer this.

What is your current alignment spec? Something could definitely be wrong there if you can easily see the difference.

Did you put on a more aggressive rear pad/rotor combo and leave old stuff on the front?

What do you mean the ABS doesn't work 95% of the time? That sounds like a problem.

Is your car spinning because your rear tires lock up completly while your fronts are still spinning?

 

Before align, I would at lest get some straight edge and measure toe front and rear. Just to be sure.
I would jack the car up and put some pressure on brake pedal, and see if all f&r tyres move the same.
I would remove callipers and move pistons in and out to be sure things are free.

 

It’s either your brakes or your alignment. If everything was good before you messed with it, then everything you touched could be the culprit. Do the simple visuals first - for instance, check to make sure your pads are installed correctly.

 

You could also have a seized caliper or one completely full of air. Was the brake pedal solid or squishy?

What you describe sounds like an issue with a brake on one side of the car not working, while its opposite does work.

Really terrible alignment would manifest itself progressively with increased brake pressure, not so suddenly, and it'd have other symptoms too.

 

Thanks everyone. Here are some of the answers you asked for:

• I know the pads are installed correctly as that is not very difficult.
• The front and rear rotors and pads are the same. The fronts were done late last year and I just did the rears. When I installed the rears I made sure the pistons moved freely and I greased them.
• I went with the factory alignment specs but asked for more toe in on the rear. Like I mentioned there is definitely more toe in on the rear driver side vs rear passenger side.
• My ABS light comes on intermittently but is usually on 95% of the time and my ABS doesn't work when the light is on but the brakes have always worked fine.
• The spin only happens when I lock up the brakes but before I did this work, I could lay on the pedal but would not lock them up. I almost wonder if when I did the brake fluid flush if I got some air out as the pedal feel is much better and I can pretty easily lock them up while in the past even if I braked as hard as I could they would never lock up. I would think when I lock them up that I should skid straight though and not spin hard to the left.

Please let me know if there is any other info you need. I am thinking I will go back to the alignment shop for them to get the rear toe in correct and go from there. Thanks again for all your help so far.

 

• I know the pads are installed correctly as that is not very difficult.

I’ve seen enough cases where pads were installed backwards to always double check mine when I do them… and I’ve done brakes dozens of times.

Also it’s easy to clean your rotors to make sure you don’t have grease on them.

Check the easy, free stuff first.

 

I should mention that when I lock them up, there is tire smoke coming from all four tires so I assume the brakes themselves are working fine but again, I have no clue what I'm doing or what is going on.

 

To add another element to the discussion if you are only spinning when all four wheels are locked up that is now a tyre issue.

If the wheels are still turning and maintaining some form of directional control spinning under heavy brakes is almost certainly too much rear bias.

 

I would suspect either your left side brakes are not releasing, or the rights not working. To my thinking for as violent of a reaction as you are describing, an alignment issue would be quite noticeable driving normally.

The only other thing I could think is a broken/cracked rear link or joint causing a sudden toe out to the right in the rear.

Good luck

 

What are your FRONT brakes doing? Are they getting hot? Do they lock under heavy braking?

I suspect too much bias to the rear is causing the ass-end to come around.

Kiyoshi

 

I've had my ABS fail before on an S2 and due to the brake booster, it makes it a very, very difficult car to drive without locking wheels up.

The S1 cars in attendance all thought it was very funny that I couldn't slow the car down without tyre smoke everywhere, but their cars are fundamentally designed to not have anti lock brakes. The S2 cars are, and it's very difficult to threshold brake with it not working.

As a Step 1, I'd be fixing that ABS.

 

I agree with acslater's comment that if it was fine before you touched it, and now its not, its probably something related to that.

You mentioned you installed new rear pads - what brake pads do you have now, front and rear?

When you say "lots more toe on the drivers side" do you have a picture of what you mean comparing drivers side and passenger side?

Wherever aligned it... have you gotten an alignment from them before?

 

Think you should bleed your brakes again. You can also get air in the abs system. And the only way to fix that is with a special tool from the dealer or by locking it up multiple times (as you have) and re-bleeding the system. Also how are you bleeding your brakes?

 

Too much rear brake bias is a well known cause of spinning the car. Especially if rear brakes are fully locked (no ABS). Sounds like you improved brake clamping force to the rears (more rear bias) and are now locking those much easier than previously. That combined with another issue (RE: any of the alignment or slight side to side variation in clamping force) leads to the consistent spin to the left.
Fix the ABS.
Silly test you could do: any option for adding like 300-400 lbs of weight predominantly to the rear wheels? Increased weight will increase grip under braking just to see if the locking and spinning goes away?

 

Also: try getting some friends to video the spin while standing on the sides of the vehicle (profile view). You need to see what each wheel is doing under the hard braking.

 

To bleed the abs system. Find some gravel (preferably without pavement below) and slam on the brakes a few times.
do you have a code reader? Wheel speed sensors connected?

 

Code reader good idea. If you dont have a reader, you can check really quickly that the ECU is 'seeing' all the ABS. Just disconnect one of the front speed sensors and make sure the ABS malfunction is illuminated.

 

one idea.......get an IR pyrometer and immediately after one of those left hand 180 spins, jump out and measure the temps of all rotors - especially the fronts first.

 

If you can visually see the toe is off on the rear, it's got to be WAY out. That should be fixed for sure but I'd think it would be obvious in the way the car handles and tracks down the road.

For the heck of it, I'd also try swapping wheels left and right. It sounds like they're worn so maybe one side is worn more than the other or has more heat cycles.

 

@Lotus1200: update us when you have some more info. Seems like lots of interested people in this discussion topic. Looking forward to hearing what you learn and how it gets resolved.

 

Hard tyres do not grip as well as soft new.
Does that really account for them locking, sort of think brakes lock wheels. Or, if the ABS and brakes were/was working would they lock old tyres and not new?

 

A couple thoughts that I don’t think have been mentioned yet:

You said the shop spent a lot of time adding and removing shims. But the shims adjust camber only. Is it possible they didn’t know how to adjust toe on an Elise?

Also did you retract the rear caliper pistons when you did the rear pads?

 

Double check those pads, they can be installed backwards or can be jammed at a slight angle that causes them to not make contact. I race with a team and we are mechanically knowledgeable; swapping transmissions, engines, and doing lots of brake changes. One of the pads was jammed at an angle and I got to look like a noob spinning at COTA on the warm up lap. Also, could be a stuck piston, loose bolt, or broken slider.

If it is not the brakes do a "nut & bolt" on the suspension. Physically check every nut & bolt with a wrench and socket. I once had a control arm bolt snap, but it was facing downward, so it just sat there looking perfectly fine. Then when I checked it spun & spun.

 

No update on this? Let’s get a pool going… I still think grease on a rotor.

 

Oh this is fun! I’m taking flipped brake pads!

 

Locking brakes

 

What shims were they playing with for a wheel alignment?

My bet is unequal rear toe - can cause unexpected spins.

 

Sorry for not posting this earlier but we still haven’t found exactly what’s causing it. I took it on the track and obviously didn’t brake hard enough to lock them up so everything went fine. We tested the resistance of each wheel at the ABS module and one of them was a little low. I’m going to have the ABS module rebuilt (as my ABS light is on 90% of the time) and see if that could be what’s causing the issue. Everything else looked great so I’m thinking it must be the ABS module or a bad speed sensor. Does the ABS module modulate braking even if not engaging the ABS? If my ABS is working, I’m thinking that will take care of the problem as I won’t be locking up the wheels. I found another post that talked about replacing the ABS harness at the wheel that is showing low resistance so maybe I’ll try that next. Still stumped overall.

 

"My ABS does not work 95% of the time and it didn't work when I spun"

seems like you need to find a computer to figure what the ABS is doing.

 

I think I either need the module rebuilt or check each wheel sensor and the continuity.