Damn man sorry to hear that !

I am having to rebuild my head after my cam flew apart. Just the same it was something I did. It was my fault.

I can imagine a rebuild oneday so I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

Sorry again ! At least when it's back it will be meaner than before. That is the only consolation prize we get each time the "usually serious" comes up.

peacb

 

Once I figured out the fuel starvation issues for track use I've had no problems with reliability. Although I will admit I have a fully built spare engine sitting in my garage "just in case" but have yet to need to use it. I'm also a preventive maintenance nut so there is some craziness involved in keeping the engine well running.

 

Fuel starvation has no relation to the reliability of the engine.

 

I like a well running engine too... I've just installed a Walbro 255-ltr/hr pump, new filter, new pressure regulator, new pickup screen, Radium fuel rail and an AN-6 line from the new in-tank-fuel system to the fuel rail. I've even replaced the OEM 440 injectors with 525 injectors. It was running a bit rich if anything...but running great and strong. I did "air it out" on the highway, but didn't redline it...I was just rolling in some more power after backing off...then...KA BOOM!

 

Shock JJ!
After all that good running here in the Gulf, why would it suddenly go bang?
I think thats the 1st point to check - retrace your foot prints.

I'm on my 5th 2ZZ powered Lotus - which have been a combination of NA, aftermarket SC, Factory SC, Factory SC with further tuning (I've had 4 Rover K Series powered ones too)…all have been fine despite use on the track, Hajar Mountains, Gulf heat & all the scaremongering you read on forums.

Switching to Honda K, has it's own issues too & to get the job done 100% would +/- $20k… even if you ship your lump off to some like BOE, the 2ZZ rebuild wouldn't be so expensive.

Good luck

 

OK...the question still stands...would you go Honda? This is only my second engine failure in my life...the first one was a Datsun that ran out of oil. This one is still on full... :shrug:

Give me your opinion...considering money and then taking price out of the equation...

 

BTW...the 2009 Cup car never had fuel starvation problems...I just about run it dry on the track...

 

I'd vote a K-swap mostly due to easier future expandability (if you ever wanted more power).
Reliability-wise, there's no problem with going back to the 2zz platform

 

I like the 2zz, but if it needed rebuilding, the following parts would be swapped:
Stock cams to Piper Stage 3.
Stock valve springs to uprated valve springs.
Stock valves to uprated valves.
Stock block to Nikasil Block.
Stock pistons to forged pistons (with a slightly lower compression).
Conversion to E-85, for better charge cooling.

 

K20 (24, 27) or bust!

I think, you face a very tough question.

I have been hanging around this forum for a long time. The number of Toyota engine failures is a little frightening. You had your motor for about 3 years and it grenaded. You should do a post-mortem, but 260hp and 3 year life-span would point to some poor design decisions. I do not think, it was anything you did or could have done. It just reached a stress limit on some part....

I think one can build a Toyota engine properly. There are plenty of people on this forum that are running them. I think it would take some $$ and experience to do so. With aftermarket supercharger kits, you could get 400hp. My personal opinion is that somewhere between 300 and 400hp is a very nice place for a Lotus. For me 550+hp is about right.

Engine: Building a 2ZZ or a K20/24 to the same level would cost a similar amount of $$. The K would be cheaper. The K is 10% to 25% more displacement! The weight is about the same. A k24 with stock block/cams/crank and forged pistons and rods would run 400hp all day long for a long time. Whatever $$ you save on the Honda will go into a Hondata computer with the Lotus dash interface and aftermarket engine mounts.

It would not be hard to build a 350hp NA 2.4L motor. It would be very easy to run a mildly turbocharged or supercharged motor to 400hp with stock cams, but maybe better valves.

Take a look at k20a.org in the engine section for common engine builds and results. the numbers I am quoting are very conservative with near Honda OEM reliability. The Odysey and MDX turbo motor is 260hp stock.

Then the Honda motor will have issues with adapting A/C (do you have that in the Cup car?) and cooling hoses. The cooling system can be easily re-made in AN hardware or adapted. I do not know what people have done about A/C.

There is a Honda conversion thread on this forum. There is my Widebody thread, although it is a pure race car.

Transmission: I think is the most complex part of the swap and the least reliable. Especially the shift cable adapter. In either cases, the cabling and shifting can be solved with a sequential from Quaife. The Honda kit is L4k. I am putting one in next week, so will put it back in the car and on the dyno in a few weeks and report. Additional items beyond that:
1. Axles. $1k
2. If you are making new axles, might as well modify the hub and the bearing, just like me and safely run 11" or 12" slick.
3. Shift cable adapter $1k, if you run stock Honda tranny.
4. Clutch.
5. New through-out bearing, although Honda slave cylinder arrangement can be re-used.

Exhaust: You will need new exhaust or parts of thereof. This could cost some $$.

The last question is the value of your car as it came from the factory. Ir will loose value with a Honda motor. Also, you have a large investment in Toyota hardware, unless it is all blown up!

Please, tell us how you managed to register this car in the US. You can PM me and I live in Canada...

Good Luck! Just take this as an opportunity to step up to 400hp! or more!

Anton

 

I think, you face a very tough question.

I have been hanging around this forum for a long time. The number of Toyota engine failures is a little frightening. You had your motor for about 3 years and it grenaded. You should do a post-mortem, but 260hp and 3 year life-span would point to some poor design decisions. I do not think, it was anything you did or could have done. It just reached a stress limit on some part....

I think one can build a Toyota engine properly. There are plenty of people on this forum that are running them. I think it would take some $$ and experience to do so. With aftermarket supercharger kits, you could get 400hp. My personal opinion is that somewhere between 300 and 400hp is a very nice place for a Lotus. For me 550+hp is about right.

Engine: Building a 2ZZ or a K20/24 to the same level would cost a similar amount of $$. The K would be cheaper. The K is 10% to 25% more displacement! The weight is about the same. A k24 with stock block/cams/crank and forged pistons and rods would run 400hp all day long for a long time. Whatever $$ you save on the Honda will go into a Hondata computer with the Lotus dash interface and aftermarket engine mounts.

It would not be hard to build a 350hp NA 2.4L motor. It would be very easy to run a mildly turbocharged or supercharged motor to 400hp with stock cams, but maybe better valves.

Take a look at k20a.org in the engine section for common engine builds and results. the numbers I am quoting are very conservative with near Honda OEM reliability. The Odysey and MDX turbo motor is 260hp stock.

Then the Honda motor will have issues with adapting A/C (do you have that in the Cup car?) and cooling hoses. The cooling system can be easily re-made in AN hardware or adapted. I do not know what people have done about A/C.

There is a Honda conversion thread on this forum. There is my Widebody thread, although it is a pure race car.

Transmission: I think is the most complex part of the swap and the least reliable. Especially the shift cable adapter. In either cases, the cabling and shifting can be solved with a sequential from Quaife. The Honda kit is L4k. I am putting one in next week, so will put it back in the car and on the dyno in a few weeks and report. Additional items beyond that:
1. Axles. $1k
2. If you are making new axles, might as well modify the hub and the bearing, just like me and safely run 11" or 12" slick.
3. Shift cable adapter $1k, if you run stock Honda tranny.
4. Clutch.
5. New through-out bearing, although Honda slave cylinder arrangement can be re-used.

Exhaust: You will need new exhaust or parts of thereof. This could cost some $$.

The last question is the value of your car as it came from the factory. Ir will loose value with a Honda motor. Also, you have a large investment in Toyota hardware, unless it is all blown up!

Please, tell us how you managed to register this car in the US. You can PM me and I live in Canada...

Good Luck! Just take this as an opportunity to step up to 400hp! or more!

Anton

The bottom end of the engine is definitely garbage...the head might be good. Not sure about the gPan2...I will be able to tell after tear down.

I'm at the last stage of getting the car registered... they already gave me the vanity plates "CUP 260". I've been to the cop shop to get the VIN verified/validated...done and signed off by the local police. The safety inspection is completed and signed off. I will go back to get the formal registration on Monday. They told me I needed all that first... so, I'm done.

 

The only thing I can contribute is a sorry to hear that. Not good and I'm sure very frustrating.


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I would not be shocked if you discover a valve failure led to the demise of the rest of the engine. More than one forum member has stuffed a broken valve, which caused a cascade failure.

 

Geez...more good news...:facepalm

 

Personally I would stick with 2ZZ. Get Phil to build you an engine. The K swap is somewhat involved and although it's been done you end up with a highly customized car that needs very specific instructions about operation, maintence and parts.

It's the top end that usually goes (valves float) not the bottom end. And I'm careful not to redline the engine.

My current Exige S has 4 track years on it and the engine is as strong as the first day (of course I just cursed that engine by saying it). That being said, I have changed the valves & springs.

Sorry your dealing with this. A complete tear down will provide a better understanding of what happened.

 

I agree with most of this. If you do the K swap you have to deal with trying to get it smogged, legality and resale value (for a street car).

If you're just going to track the car I still don't know that the 2ZZ isn't the answer. Phil will get you at least 350 rwhp and if the Honda swap was such a great way to make power I think he and Fred would have gone that route on their race cars. For that matter you could swap in a much more powerful motor if you're going custom, which is what you're doing with a Honda swap.

Just my opinion. I know one forum member here has invested a lot of time and money in a Honda swap just to be very disappointed.

San

 

He (Phil) appears to be quite busy...I would like to speck out an engine...with some discussion... He has not had the time to do that yet with me...but this is still the weekend...

 

I vote for 2zz built by Phil. The stock engine has a lot of weak points. So failure is not rare

 

So you're voting for failure?

 

I said stock engine fail. Phil builds upgraded engines that are not known to fail. K swap will be a lot more work and it is only as good as person doing the work. Phil at boe has a history of building solid engines

 

Have you got a Phil Engine? If so, what was done to it? The complete laundry list...

What was worth getting? What was not? What you wish you got...

 

Kits for the swap do exist.

Conversion Kits H2E

 

But I'm not real impressed with the transverse mounting of an engine... If I was to dive into that much work, I'd just do it right...longitudinally... see one above post with brochure.

 

So you want to switch from a transverse 2ZZ drive train to North:South Honda 'X'?

Lets see : pull apart a rare Cup 260, re-engineer a complete new rear subframe / rear suspension, find a suitable transmission....it'll be a long list.
Err...how many years do your want to spanner the car Vs driving it?

If that's your quest, just buy another type of car (like a Dare G12 ) or contact : RS Performance

... Suddenly rebuilding the 2ZZ seems very simple ;-)

 

See page 5 of 16 of this brochure...

http://www.jmia.jp/img/kit_racer_100908e.pdf

That is a K20 motor and a sequential box...just bolt the whole back end (suspension and all) firewall-aft to the back of the Lotus. I would just have to build a custom bell housing and mount it in place of the rear subframe...

 

Kswap ftw


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I am sorry you blew the engine. I did not ask where you live. It will make difference who i recommend. For the 2zz the pistons and valves are the most common parts to fail.

I would get BOE complete short block and Jim Clayton head with ferra valves and have Phil put it together and do the tune.
Ross Carlson did a nice engine build thread I recommend reading

 

I'm willing to go anyplace... How does one get a hold of Jim Clayton?

 

Sorry to hear about your engine.
It appears it was properly lubricated (good oil, Gpan, oil coolers). I assume you did not overrev it (money shift), sometimes when this happens the total failure is not inmediate, it can happen a long time after the initial overrev.

It will be interesting to know the cause of the failure; some have mentioned a dropped valve. You probably have also a raised rev limited provided by the ECU tune, which could increase the risk of this happening.

However, I would be highly suspect of detonation, because of these reasons:
- You are running a "canned", semi-generic tune which has not been specifically optimized for your car and mods
- High IATs because of engine desing (SC + ****ty airflow to the IC)
- High ambient temperatures
- No detonation monitoring? (is this even possible with BOE fastworks datalogger?)
- No A/F monitoring? (Walbros have been know to fail)

Signs of detonation should be pretty evident on engine dissasembly, if present.

It`s hard to really judge the incidence of catastrophic engine failures just from reading the forums. You will find such anecdotal evidence in any forum you visit, and yes that includes Honda engine failures (both K20 and F20C), specially if modified. So I woulnd`t jump on the conclusion that 2zz engine reliability is below average just because you read about a few cases in lotustalk. I would personally not go K20 unless I was planning on a high power, money is no object project.

 

I am ruling out a dropped valve...even before a tear down. The reason is, that a dropped valve makes a lot of noise hitting the top of the piston...it sounds like a blender with a spoon in it...there were no noises.

The temperature outside was in the low to mid 70s...a very nice day for a drive...

I still have the stock Cup car tune...Phil had not completed the "black dash" tune yet...still waiting on him.

Detonation also has a very specific sound, and feel, that I did not hear or feel.

The car had been sitting for the last two months and I had to put it into 4th gear to get it bumped off... :shrug:

 

K swap has my vote, corsportusa.com is where you can get your parts for a great price, also I haven't herd so many motors blown 2zz vs k20a2 or k24a2, also the ceiling is higher on the k motor vs the 2zz

 

Yeah...Toyotas have a great reliability track record...that is why I'm very surprised and bummed...

 

I agree, im very puzzled by this opcorn:

 

This has been something I've been thinking about lately (2ZZ reliability) and then this thread pops up (sorry to hear OP).

FWIW, I think you should stick with the 2ZZ because you have a cup 260. If you want to do a K swap, slap a replacement short block in your car, sell it and buy a cheap Elise and do your K swap. No point wrecking a rare car.

On the subject of 2ZZs, is there any preventable maintenance or checks that can be carried out to avoid this sort of stuff or is it a case of the luck of the draw?

 

Sorry to hear about this misfortune. Curious, did it fail in first or second cam?

How are you guys finding the reliability of the supercharged 2ZZ-GE engines?

I'd rephrase this to: How are you guys finding the reliability of the supercharged 2ZZ-GE engine with mods and driving habits similar to mine? If you post an ecu dump with rev limiter hits or total time spent in second cam, we may find some clues.

 

Sorry to hear about this misfortune. Curious, did it fail in first or second cam?



I'd rephrase this to: How are you guys finding the reliability of the supercharged 2ZZ-GE engine with mods and driving habits similar to mine? If you post an ecu dump with rev limiter hits or total time spent in second cam, we may find some clues.

I would be glad to do that if someone sends me all the stuff (software and cable) to do that. I'm very interested myself.

 

Boe can have the Jim Clayton work done for you. I have a 2zz with a 275ff turbo and it runs great. I spent a lot time with tune and run a data logger that constantly cycles, so if something feels wrong I can check the data log. I also have AFR gauge.