Why do you need a ground wire? What are you trying to ground?

 

the ricers think they get more horsepower and better performance by adding in those stupid "ground kits" with all the extra large guage ground wires. He probably saw one on e-bay or something.

 

the ricers think they get more horsepower and better performance by adding in those stupid "ground kits" with all the extra large guage ground wires.

That was my first thought, but I was going to wait for an explanation first. :shrug:

 

grounding

The key to the grounding loops is they allow for better electric connections so that sensors communicate well with the ecu. These actions allow for optimum inputs and feedback. The electical loop is now a shorter distance to travel with less resistance. Also, think back to the lite gauge speaker wires used in the past (ok... 25 plus years ago) and now top end stereo use "monster cables". Why? because they work. I got dyno proof of 8 bhp just with the ground wires with my turbo integra. So I am a believer

 

I'm a firm believer that if it really made that much difference, that the Manufacturer would spend the 3.5 cents to put an extra piece of wire in there to get those big horsepower gains. Look at all the money they spend in other areas. Of course I still don't believe that spark plugs with 4 prongs will give you 20 HP either, and that most people F more up with their cheesy aftermarket intakes then they help too. This strongly opinionated conclusion I come to may stem from my own experiences working with OEM manufactures and my work on Flowbenches and Engine Dynos. I would catagorize it in the same "snake oil" category as HP adding oil additives, magnetic fuel chargers, the aforementioned newfandangeled spilt fire, etc style spark plugs, turbonator air intake swirlers, lighted windshield washer nozzles, etc. I think you stand a better chance of big power gains from some real nice stickers.

I don't doubt the above turbo integra HP ground wire gains, but possibly those gains were from lower intake temperatures, a different barometric pressure, an error in the correction factor, or some other envirionmental element. Dyno fluctuations before "corrections" are pretty common, especially when a turbo gets factored into the mix. But there is nothing to say that I'm not 100% wrong either. It's very well possible.

 

Also, think back to the lite gauge speaker wires used in the past (ok... 25 plus years ago) and now top end stereo use "monster cables". Why? because they work.

Well, yes, if you define 'work' as 'making a shitload of money for the Monster Cable people'. Better sound? Not so much.

Having said all this, are there really any significant audible differences between most cables that can be consistently identified by experienced listeners? The answer is simple: very seldom! Those who claim otherwise do not fully grasp the power of the old Placebo-Effect - which is very alive and well among even the most well-intentioned listeners. The placebo-effect renders audible signatures easy to detect and describe - if the listener knows which cable is being heard. But, take away this knowledge during blind or double-blind listening comparisons and the differences either disappear completely or hover close to the level of random guessing. Speaking as a competent professional engineer, designer and manufacturer, nothing would please me and my company's staff more than being able to design a cable which consistently yielded a positive score during blind listening comparisons against other cables. But it only rarely happens - if we wish to be honest!

Oh yes, we have heard of golden-eared audiophiles who claim to be able to consistently identify huge, audible differences between cables. But when these experts have visited our facility and were put to the test under carefully-controlled conditions, they invariably failed to yield a score any better than chance. For example, when led to believe that three popular cables were being compared, varying in size from a high-quality 12 AWG ZIP-CORD to a high-tech looking cable with a diameter exceeding an inch, the largest and sexiest looking cable always scored best - even though the CABLES WERE NEVER CHANGED and they listened to the ZIP Cord the entire time.

From http://www.verber.com/mark/cables.html

A 6-page article by Laurence Greenhill titled "Speaker Cables: Can You Hear the Difference?" was published in Stereo Review magazine on August 1983. It compared Monster cable, 16-gauge wire and 24-gauge wire. The price at that time for a pair of 30-foot lengths of monster cables was $55.00. The cost for 16 gauge heavy lamp cord was $.30/foot or $18.00 and the 24 gauge "speaker wire" was $.03/foot or $1.80

"...So what do our fifty hours of testing, scoring and listening to speaker cables amount to? Only that 16-gauge lamp cord and Monster cable are indistinguishable from each other with music and seem to be superior to the 24 gauge wire commonly sold or given away as 'speaker cable.' Remember, however, that it was a measurable characteristic--higher resistance per foot--that made 24 gauge sound different from the other cables. If the cable runs were only 6 instead of 30 feet, the overall cable resistances would have been lower and our tests would probably have found no audible differences between the three cables. This project was unable to validate the sonic benefits claimed for exotic speaker cables over common 16-gauge zip cord. We can only conclude, therefore, that there is little advantage besides pride of ownership in using these thick, expensive wires"

From http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Plus, check out Dan's Data for plenty more on the subject...

 

WARNING: Thread-jack

Great reply Andy - I couldn't agree more. I've always found the overpriced Monster Cables amusing. I love them because I think they are ingenious uses of marketing and brand power. I, of course, much prefer the lamp cord – and you can find it all over my home.

What I find even more amusing is the selling of Monster Cable optical cables (or even ‘special’ digital coax cables). I’ve given up trying to explain to people that with digital, it either works or it doesn’t – 1’s don’t become bigger, better 1’s – 0’s don’t become smaller 0’s. <sigh> Whatever, I think you are better off giving me the dough for half the price of the cable and letting me kick you in the nuts. Same effect IMHO. Add to this category the special Xbox system link cables – they are freakin’ Ethernet crossover cables people. $3 – not $25. And while we are on it, how about the gold tipped RJ11 phone connectors? Genius. Money making genius. </rant>

What I do stop short to criticize are some of the highly shielded audio cables for car applications. While I wish the digital distribution (especially low-level to the amp) would have caught on more in the Prosumer car segment, I do wonder how much better some of these well designed and shielded cables provide in that environment. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not going to spend $500 for some 10ft RCA’s to feed from my HU, but I gotta believe there is something better out there for auto applications then the good ol’ red-n-white RCA POSes. Thoughts on this anyone?

 

Balanced drivers on a shielded twisted pair differential cables have better noise immunity. For example, Zapco has both this and RCA as inputs to amps. They call it symbilink, but it is simply a balanced driver for shielded twisted pair (old method analog signal circuit and cable design, just not used in the audio industry much, but is used in high performance data acquisition systems).
Zapco

Or, you might consider triax cable. The point is to have balanced currents on the wires inside the shield so that you don't have any signal carrying current in the shield in order to avoid any common mode pickup. Also, you don't want to create a loop with the signal wires as that can pick up magnetic fields.

 

Monster Cable: I just shook my head the first time I saw one of their "High Speed Modem Cables". It guaranteed that you would get maximum throughput and highest speeds using their cable. As if 3 feet of heavy cable connected to the miles of telephone circuits was going to improve your modem speed.:wallbang:

Ground kits for cars: Adding ground cables to cars isn't going to help anything any more than just removing and cleaning the contacts of the existing ground cables. Or course you do have to make sure that the existing cables are not frayed and/or corroded. But if you really think that adding a 10 gauge wire is going to help carry the 2 amps that the existing 6 gauge wire is already carrying, go ahead and spend your money*...

:wave: * actual wire sizes made up, but you get the idea...

 

Had this conversation at work earlier. In the end becuase you're dealing with such low power going through the wires it just doesn't matter much.

Ground kits for cars:

It's doesn't matter much. There are two cases that I have found that a "grounding kit" would have any effect - if the leads off the negative terminal are bad or corroded or if you are grounding through the body and not a negative cable. Either way it's the connection you are fixing and damn near any wire will do a good enough job.

Monster Cables:

Aka Monster Cashola. The size of the wire has little to do with the quality of it in the situations that occur in a car or house audio system. As ChrisH said twisted pair or triax cable help zero out EM interference on the same cable and that is the only type of cable that has a proven scientific effect. Any other wire not made of a superior material (less resistive) won't do crap. Oxidation is the enemy and that is easily fixed by cleaning the connections or putting a new end on. I prefer solid core wire vs strained becuase the core of wire doesn't get as oxidized (longevity), but that could be mental and not actual.

 

poor guy who needs to buy stuff from ebay...

oh sorru sweetdaddy maybe i am poor so i have to bid stuff on ebay >.< but just want to tell u one thing...>.< i just order a kms titanium exhaust from japan cost not really much but 4500US ONLY :huh: ...i a, just so poor that i have to pay double in Hong Kong just for the taxes...oh..also i pay for 450US for the voltage stablizer?? which increase a lot of throttle respond and low/mid range i am so sorry but maybe i post it in the wrong location but i think elise(mine is an exige) is really need a better ground wire since the hid (philip's) is not 100%work for turning it on...

honestly if u really have an elise u will know the lack of electron after u turn the ac on my friend...hahaha~

Exige 2 performance pack~
my mod...fizanda,dc header,ignition solution plasma direct,DPS super gold,KMS racing titanium exhaust,Reverie's caron rear diffuser,side scoop,side induct,intake,craftsquare cf side mirror,trd 1.5way lsd,custom cf rear panel,2 set of philip's hid ...fog light,KMs exhaust button sport/race mod,JNC digital recorder 4wireless camera...gtech pro RR...well i alway search in ebay but do search not for my car haha

 

ooops forgot1thing>.<"

i am planning on mod my final gear to C-one final gear...or the complete set of c-one transmition hope i can find on ebay>.<"...sorry i am poor

 

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE WORDS COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH. haha

Ok dude, so you are soooo rich that you can go around buying sweeeet ground kits all over e-bay. I didn't say anything about you being poor. Might of thought you were a bit of a dumb@ss though. Wow between the ground kit, muffler, and voltage stabilizer , your elise must put out almost 194 HP!!! I can send you some very large stickers if you need them as well. There are some REAL power adders out there. Do a search for "forced fed Turbo" It might cost you a million kajillion dollars to get in Hong Kong, but you have the money. Hold on a second, your writing style sounds familiar. Is this the Asian Prince??? http://www.geocities.com/asianprince213/

 

sorry my english sux ...it is my car have to pay double of US elise..not the exhaust ...feel free to ask KMS for the titanium exhaust they dun post it on their site...haha its over 400000yen my friend...also i hv an extra damaged exigeS2 rear clamshell but repaired...but not for sale~haha

i just want to make a fastest NA exigeS2 with 2zz-ge engine...really i come here to seek for help not cumin here to made zhiT post...and please do more search or know the elise/2zz better b4 u share ur idea...
hks f-con V pro is gonna charge 4000us for full tune and connect all the wire in hks pro dealer shop in hk...i want to do the mod but i want to change some engine parts 1st...also i want to know the lenght of the trial 3zz connecting rod cos i want to custom a titanium one..and again hopefully i can find it on ebay hahaha

 

turbo not my style and 275 turbo is just nothing to me...if i really want i will wait for the 400hp turbo kit or custom make one...but the hk weather does allow me to go turbo...maybe supercharge later i dunno but i will tune my car step by step not put a turbo with out internal mod...haha yes i am asian so wut?i am rich no man i am just a poor 21 yrs old kid...hehe...and they said 0-100km in 4 sec i really dun agree with that

 

JYIP......I'm not sure if this idiom will translate correctly for you but........Never get into a discussion with the south end of a north-bound horse.

 

Sooooo.... back to the question of "ground kits".. the cool thing is that this is about the most accessible automotive science around.

Anyone with a scope or a multimeter can say "Yes, this circuit appears improperly grounded." Of course, you would have to assume nobody at Lotus did the same thing while developing their ECU, and that's quite a stretch.

You will notice that most of the low-voltage or sensitive signals on the car are run in shielded differential cable from the sensor to the ECU. This pretty much negates any ground noise right at the spot, and it's a fine way to engineer in a noise-rich environment.

I'm guessing Randy knows more about this than the rest of us put together, and if he's not burdening his Elise with 4 gauge wires, then that's good enough for me.

 

This is one of those topics I tend to stay out of. It normally seems fruitless to debate.

P.S. Sweetdaddy, please cut others some slack. jyip at least has a good excuse for not typing english well. thanks.

 

could depend on how fast the ECU is working?, if you stabalize the voltage ( a portion of that is ground) than the ECU may then read 100% in and out - So there could be some gains to stabalizing the voltage.

...and the argument "if it added power the manuf. would install it" ?? right.... thats why are heads are ported and polished and we all got smooth tube induction with foam can filters and titanium exh. and free flow cats, and....

 

...and the argument "if it added power the manuf. would install it" ?? right.... thats why are heads are ported and polished and we all got smooth tube induction with foam can filters and titanium exh. and free flow cats, and....

Yes, but your examples all require either more design iteration and manufacturing work or dramatically more expensive components. Getting the grounding right is a fundamental part of the electrical system design. It doesn't really cost any more to do it right. And you don't need round after round of expensive dyno testing to see if you got it right. Just a moderately well trained tech with a multitester.

 

grounding is only one part of voltage stabalization - thats all i was saying... TVSS is a bit more involved than just "ground"

 

upgrading your ground wire is really only needed when you upgrade to a higher current alternator. a 150 or 200 amp alternator will need a 4 gauge leads on both sides to handle the additional current. that means a 4ga wire going from battery negative to vehicle ground to the engine block.

there is one isolated case where upgrading the ground will help engine performance and that is when the injectors and/or ignitors are upgraded to larger or higher performance units. large injectors pull 2-3x the current of stock ones. if you had the A/C going and the headlights on and the stereo playing, then you could theoretically be causing momentary spikes in the current used which causes resistance on the ground lead. the resistance then results in a voltage drop, causing a smaller spark or the injector firing a few milliseconds late which could concievably cause a loss of a few hp. on a stock vehicle, i cant see how this could ever be the case and certainly not anything like 8 hp.

as for monster cable i think andy summed it up best that it certainly does good for the monster cable dealers and distributors pockets.

finally, balanced lines are used in audio quite a bit, particularly in reference and professional audio. the main reason is to eliminate noise. they work on the principal of passing the signal through 2 leads in a twisted pair. one signal is passed straight thru while the other is inverted. any noise that could be induced in the cable will cause identical signatures in each lead. at the other end, the inverted lead is inverted back again and the two leads are summed. this causes any induced noise in the two leads to cancel out while doubling the signal level. consequently, the CAN network in the elise uses balanced lines to eliminate induced noise.

 

...and the argument "if it added power the manuf. would install it" ?? right.... thats why are heads are ported and polished and we all got smooth tube induction with foam can filters and titanium exh. and free flow cats, and....

But those things cost lots of money to add to the car. An extra thick ground wire adds what? 10 ¢? Even Lotus could afford to add that to the cars if it actually did something.

 

also voltage stabilization is patently unecessary and the principal behind it is just bad science. the ecu and all sensors and electronics run on either 5 volts or 3.3 volts. they are all internally regulated to those voltages (called the bus voltage). it does not matter whether the vehicle voltage is 14.4 volts or 9 volts as they will all work properly. again, its only the coils and fuel injectors that need above 11 volts to work nominally. less than 11 volts means less spark but if your engine is running the alternator will always keep the voltage between 13.5 and 14.4 volts and everything will be just fine.

 

Yes, but your examples all require either more design iteration and manufacturing work or dramatically more expensive components. Getting the grounding right is a fundamental part of the electrical system design. It doesn't really cost any more to do it right. And you don't need round after round of expensive dyno testing to see if you got it right. Just a moderately well trained tech with a multitester.

Andy, I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but I kind of file this under the "Yeah, check out my headlights" category. Other than 8 minutes on the line, there was no other significant cost (that I can see) to having the factory aim my headlights at anything other than eachother - and to me this is a big deal. Bigger than 8hp. -eek- I think (especially on a limited production car) plenty of things go unnoticed, unchecked, and slip through the cracks.

While I'm not running out to buy a 0/2 stick of copper, I've always wanted to see some true testing on various cars to see if updated ground systems help on any particular line car.

</ramble>



ok, maybe not a bigger deal than 8hp...